Abortion

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mui, May 28, 2004.

  1. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    OK, but they don't show any kind of causal relationship with the law Bush signed. I'm very curious how abortion factors in. Do states with higher abortion rates get a better teen pregnancy score?


    They don't have to undermine the efforts of responsible parents in the process.


    What alternatives do you have in mind? "Serial monogamy" is an oxymoron.
     
  2. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    Bush promoted abstinence-only in his state; if it worked, wouldn't Texas have a significantly lower teen pregnancy rate? It's not perfect, I realize, but common sense dictates that the less people have sex, the less they get pregnant.

    ETA: Here is an interesting article I found from last year (just an editorial) about sex ed in Texas, specifically Lubbock County.


    But see, that's the problem. Some parents aren't responsible. They either don't talk to their kids because they themselves are perhaps embarrassed and don't want to bring up the issue, or they are prudish about it and simply refuse to talk about it, instead opting for a "don't do it, or else" stance.

    I had a lot of friends growing up with parents like these.

    What do you mean, alternatives? If a person never gets married, should they remain a virgin their entire life? No matter how many people they date, no matter if they have relationship with someone for fifty years, should they never, ever have sex with that person?
     
  3. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    Again, there are many other factors to consider. How is teen pregnancy counted? Are abortions included? If not, then states with higher abortion rates will report artificially low pregnancy rates. My guess is that one reason Texas reports more pregnancies is because more of them result in live birth.

    In any case, a single state is not definitive. I recently cited research from Alabama that contradicts your Texas hypothesis. You've also completely ignored the study I cited demonstrating that reduced teen pregnancies nationwide are the result of reduced sexual activity rather than "safer" sex practices.


    As I said before, parents who are responsible shouldn't have their efforts undermined by programs that (explicitly or implicitly) encourage sexual experimentation.


    The issue is not a marriage ceremony or certificate per se, but a lifelong committment. However, I seriously doubt that people commonly "shack up" for life.
     
  4. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    You're right, I did disregard it.

    The studies do not come from non-biased sources.

    I don't trust much, like I've said before.

    No, but even if they didn't, it wouldn't be our business, would it?
     
  5. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    How convienient: attack the messenger and ignore the message. If you weren't so smugly dismissive, you might have noticed that one of those studies was authored by a group of licensed MDs, peer-reviewed, and thoroughly documented with footnotes.
     
  6. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    Please explain to me how I attacked you.

    Also, you do not care to answer my question about if it's any of your business if a person is having sex outside of marriage?
     
  7. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    You didn't, but you discarded my references as "biased" without even attempting to deal with their content.


    Well, I think that marriage is clearly a preferable setting for having kids, which is a typical outcome of a sexual relationship. Encouraging pre-marital abstinence seems perfectly reasonable to me.
     
  8. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    Ah, I see.

    The key words there being "I think". That is just your opinion. Plenty of people have sex without ever having kids. And plenty of people have sex without ever getting married.

    To each their own. It's none of our business what they do.
     
  9. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    Yeah, that's pretty weak. There's really not much point in debating if you're going to simply ignore data that conflicts with your position.


    What's my opinion, that kids are better off with married parents?


    The only foolproof way to do this is sterilization. Even the most reliable birth control methods fail sometimes.


    Yes, and the social costs are very high: family breakdown, abortion, STDs, etc.


    Kids should at least be made fully aware of the risks.
     
  10. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    No, there isn't, is there?

    Quite honestly, I don't think that anyone is going to know what works for awhile, after a lot of research. Perhaps it will be abstinence-only, perhaps it will be something different. Because I think programs that stress abstinence do work, to an extent; but the kids need to learn a lot more than "don't do it".

    All I can say is I, for one, am not going to rely on the schools to teach my kids something that I can myself; something I think will work. Because, afterall, who knows my kids better than I do?

    I meant that you think marriage is a setting to have kids in, and that's it. That is just the impression I got from you, is all.

    Although, to be fair, I think children can be brought up very well in many sorts of situations, but that is something I do not want to get into with you.

    Of course they do!

    Oh please. Marriage does not stop people from getting abortions nor STDs.

    Well, at least I know my kids will be made aware of risks and the precautions they should take!
     
  11. LuciferSam

    LuciferSam Member

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    Hmmm... isn't that a good reason to educate young people about minimizing those risks should they not stay abstinate?
     
  12. TheFriendlyStranger

    TheFriendlyStranger Maniac Mull Mite

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    So next time dont let me freaken forget ok?

    TFS:D
     
  13. Mui

    Mui Senior Member

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    bump ^^ *evil laughter*
     
  14. Moonjava

    Moonjava Senior Member

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    That's really not a good argument, hon. I mean, if you are trying to convince someone who is pro-life such as myself that they should be pro-choice.. I don't think they're going to be too concerned about the safety of a woman who is murdering her baby. And I believe that life begins at conception... that's why I'm pro-life.
    I guess you could say that I am pro-choice, too.... your choice ends once you decide to have sex. I know there are cases such as rape and incest, and those are so sensitive... I just don't know what to think about those. But then there are those cases where it's just like, "Whoops! I'm pregnant and I'm not ready for this. I guess I better make an appoinment to get an abortion so my problem will be solved. *POOF!* It's gone!" In those cases I do have an opinion, and that is: if you don't wanna get pregnant, keep your legs shut or take some precautions. But precautions are never 100%.
    I'm so proud of Bush for passing the partial birth abortion act. I mean, if you are gonna go through all the pain and trouble of actually giving birth, why not just have it and put it up for adoption? Would that be more painful than killing it or something? Just wondering, cuz I don't understand.
    One more thing: I think most mothers who have abortions are scarred and feel life long trauma from it because it's NOT natural. Hippies don't kill babies.
     
  15. Applespark

    Applespark Ingredients:*Sugar*

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  16. GrievousAngel

    GrievousAngel Banned

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    I don't understand how someone can be pro-choice and against the Death Penalty.
     
  17. Sera Michele

    Sera Michele Senior Member

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    So...what about those who are pro-choice and for the death penalty?

    Fact is, pro-choicers don't want to force anyone to have abortions, they just don't want to take away anyone's right to choose. Abortion is a touchy subject, and there will never be a time when everyone will think it is right. No one is asking for everyone to think abortioins are right for them.

    And these partial-birth abortions, less than 1% of abortions are that late in term, and usually for health reasons. I agree, however, that an abortion that late in the term should not be allowed without very good reason. BUT that reason should be left up to the doctors and parents, and not politicians.
     
  18. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    It's a medical fact human life begins at conception. Therefor, unless you have a dire circumstance, such as rape, or the mother's life in danger, legally, you should not have a right to kill an innocent human being. A fetus is just as much of a human as an old man. A fetus is simply a stage of devolopment, and humans are ALWAYS changing and devoloping--ALL OF US have changed and will continue to until we die. There is no magical moment when a person is automatically deemed, "Human" especially since even as a tiny embryo they have the same scientific classification as we do, sitting and typing on here.

    I am not against abortion becasue I am Catholic, or becasue I think it's "morally" wrong, it is an infringement on another human's life--a simple violation of the Social Contract. [Rosseau and Locke kicked so much ass]. Until that fetus is infringing on your right to life, you do not have a liable cause for ending it's life. Abortion might be the most grotesque, legal practice at this period of time. It's shamefull politicans don't have enough back bone to stand up for the legal rights of ones who cannot protect themselves, it's pathetic.

    How is telling women to abort their babies a positive stance for women's rights? If you want control and real women's rights, and the same goes for men, then control your hormones people. The lack of self responsibility is disgusting. If you choose to have sex, and you mess up, tough shit, that does not give you or the father a right to kill an innocent human being, simply becasue YOU two fucked up. Put it up for adoption for Christ's sake, don't kill it.
     
  19. HappyHaHaGirl

    HappyHaHaGirl *HipForums Princess*

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    I think abortion is a terrible thing unless, like you said, there are health problems with the mother or the baby... I don't agree with the rape thing though. I could never live with myself if I had an abortion. I don't agree with it at all as a method of birth control; if you aren't ready to accept the consequences of having sex, don't do it.

    As much as I personally oppose it, though. I do believe that women should have the right to make the decision of whether or not to have an abortion on their own. If that's the choice a woman feels she needs to make, be it out of fear or inconvenience or selfishness or health concerns, then it should be her choice to make, and no one elses.... well, except possibly the father's. But I don't want to get into that.

    Also, if abortion is made illegal, it will not go away. It will just become more dangerous.
     
  20. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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    the basic point that makes me hesitate on this is that i know that my view on abortion comes from my religious faith. i don't believe in having a law based on religious faith, anyone's. my best friend in the entire world is pro-abortion, for reasons that i find to be completely nonsensical. however, since my reasoning is so deeply influenced by my ultimate faith, i cannot, even by the very foundation of my faith, force her to follow a tenet of my faith. so, while i will always counsel anyone against abortion, and clearly state my reasons, i will not stop anyone from doing so. but then, i dont' do anything to stop murderer's and bank robbers, either.
     

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