question about jesus as prophet or moral teacher - to xtians/athiests

^a good point.

 

You know Hindu consider Christ to be a great Guru or a Yogi Jews and Muslims view him as a great phrophet from God a few religions consider him the greatest healer of his time. Most atheist just claim he was david copperfield. My point is that most religions view Jesus as a Great Moral Wise Healing Spiritual man...So I tend to belive Christ is more then a normal man...Why would so many diffrent religions hold him in such high regard if he was just a man?

As far as Paul saying Jesus was God. In John it says the Word was God and Jesus was called the Word. Then again in John Ch 1 V 10 it says "the woulrd was made through him" talking about Jesus.

The triune god didn't come till later.

 

Well, he didn't say it directly...but he DID say:

''I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father, except through ME.''
-John 14:6

 

In the same chapter, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. How say you then 'Show us the Father'?"

Oh yeah... when the scribes and pharisees accused Him of blasphemy for His claims, He did NOT correct them. Now, if He were a prophet and they said He claimed to be God, then He would correct them. But He didn't. They accused Him of claiming to be of the same substance with the Father and He did not deny it.

Also, Thomas said directly to Him, "My Lord and My God..." Did Christ correct Thomas? Nope. Seems to me that if Christ was a good person at all, then He would have corrected these people... unless what they were saying was accurate.

 

Unless some priests mixed in their own views. You keep on quoting John even though this Gospel is the most controversial one among the christian scholars. Some denied it others are just doubtful. This is why it's called the heretic gospel and the others synoptic gospels. The synoptic gospels are pretty much alike while the gospel of John is very different.
For instance, In John, Jesus(may peace be upon him) speaks much about him self in long dialouges while in the synoptic he speaks in short lines and not so much of him self, in the synoptic gospels, throwing out the money changers was the last part of his mission while (H) state that this was the first thing he did. In (S) he speaks about the oppressed and their rights and he does a lot of exorcism while in (H) he does'nt do this, nor does he talk much about the oppressed and the poor. (H) claims that he was crucified on the 14 nisan while the others say 15, (S) claims that his public ministry lasted 1 year while John claims 3 years.



Now the question is, can we trust this?

(B) "NO ONE comes to the Father, except through ME.''
Ofcourse no one can worship Allah(may he be exalted) without following their prophet, I do not deny this. The jews became disbelievers when they started rejecting prophets, if you reject one its like you have rejected them all!
So yes, no once can worship the Lord as he should be worshipped without the guidlines from the prophet he sent.
I believe this, because its in the Quran:
Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[3.031]

(C)

Perhaps the matter becomes more clear if we look at other verses describing this:

1. John 8:19: "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
2. John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."
3. John 15:23 "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."
4. Matthew 10:40-41 "He that receiveth you receiveth me (Jesus), and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."

Alsharad, if you really believe that what is meant by seeing Jesus(peace be upon him) is the same as wathching our Creator then you are CONTRADICTING THE BIBLE:


"No man hath seen God at any time,"John 1:18

 

You might want to look up "synoptic." Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called synoptic because they present summaries of the life of Christ. John, on the other hand, does not present any events in a particular order, nor does he need to. He is not providing a synopsis of the life of Christ. His aim is to show Christ's divinity. So, you stating that John has stuff in different order is irrelavent. Why? Because the book's events are not chronological.
And could you please name the biblical scholars who call John the 'heretic gospel'?

John, again, is aimed at Christ's identity more than His sermons.

Where are these stated specifically?


Now the question is, can we trust this?

Except that the idea you are putting forth is completely out of context.
14:5 Thomas said, "Lord, we don't know where you are going. How can we know the way?" 14:6 Jesus replied, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 14:7 If you have known me, you will know my Father too. And from now on you do know him and have seen him."

14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be content." 14:9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me?

The entire gist of the conversation is Christ claiming to be divine. Christians might claim to have the Holy Spirit within them, but no one claims to indwell the Father as much as He indwells us. Yet that is exactly what Christ claimed. Your interpretation of talking of prophets simply does not fit within the context of this passage.

One of two things is possible based on the above (please understand I have no sense of context here):
1) Allah's love is conditional. If we love him, he will love us. Christ loves us regardless of our actions. His love is completely unconditional (and necessarily greater than conditional love).
or
2) Allah's love is not conditional in which case Allah will love us unconditionally and, in the same way, forgive us all unconditionally. Allah is forgiving and merciful and will forgive regardless of whether we want it.

I don't want to get into the 'prooftexts' that you have posted with no explanations as to how they somehow claim that Christ is *not* divine. That interpretations rely heavily on the presupposition that God cannot also be a man. That God cannot also be a prophet or that God cannot send himself are other assumptions that underride your interpretations.

However, regarding that statement, I found this little quib that answers it really well.


"The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father, then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation."

 

something to keep in mind when getting overly concerned over the whole "no one comes to the father but through me" quote:

So even if Jesus is claiming to be one with the Lord, he's saying we are too, all we have to do is believe (realize) it.

 

We've got God's breath in us, we were made in his image. But we're no where like him. There's the trinity, and we have a spirit he gave to us, once we believe in Jesus the Holy Spirit lives in us. Who's a destinct spirit, part of the trinity, but still lives in us. We're not the father nor the son.

 

1. He just said that you don't know the father unless you know him. He said that if you know him, you'll know his father. This doesn't disproove, but prooves that he IS part of G-d/Allah.


2. You believe in Jesus, you believe in G-d/Allah, EXACTLY! Because He's part of G-d.
G-d the father, G-d the son, and the Holy Spirit; the creator, saviour, and teacher.


3. Yeah, again, that's just who he is. If you believe in, say, Isiah, do you believe in G-d/Allah?



4.The Bold was a comparission, as well as what's after that. You already know what I'm gonna say about that: Believe in Jesus, believe in G-d/ Allah! For Jesus IS G-d! (maybe Allah means only the Father?)


5. He wasn't a man when he was with his father, he was part of the trinity.
Allah's not a man, right? He's a G-D! The one and only G-d!

 

The scholars who authored the book "The five gospels".

Yes it is. Your bible testifies to this:

"No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God" John 16.27

He made that a condition didn't he? It says that those who follow him, love him and believe that he was sent from God will be loved. And I do love him, believe in him and follow his message of clear monotheism and I do refrain from what he refrained from and I am circumsized and I do prostate to my lord on a daily basis, but must importantly I worship the one he worshipped!

So you are telling me that Christ(may peace be upon him) loved corrupters, poltheistic murderers, rapers and horrible hypocrites!

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple.- Luke 14.26

I do not believe that he said that but you do(I will not try to explain the meaning of this), so explain to me how he cannot hate those who do wrong and tell you to hate your own parents?


2)

Absolutly no! How can he forgive the one who doesn't want to be forgiven?? It is true that he is the Most Merciful and the Most Forgiving but he is also just! How can one who repent be treated like the one never repented? I we follow these words of yours, it seems that the situation awaiting a certain german leader isn't all to bad after all...

Didn't understand this? I am confused, so now you are speaking about two gods?

So Jesus(peace be upon him) could be and stop being a god whenever he wanted, I don't think I need to comment on that one...

 

So now you are telling me that you are a god? So, if a pagan who believes that Allah(may he be exalted) is everywhere starts worshipping an idol or a person you can't disagree!

When you say this, you are acually contradicting the bible. Saying "For Jesus IS G-d!" when the verse says "No man hath seen God at any time,"
but people saw Jesus(peace be upon him) so he can't be God.

It is the name of God, the name of the god of Moses and Adam(peace be upon them both). Arabs jews and christians use this name as well and I must tell you that I do like to use that name since it abolish confusion.
The name can't be made plural such as saying gods nor can you change it into saying godess, godfather or godly/godlike. You can't change this word as the word god. Some people say that god is the planet but you can't say that with the word Allah(may he be exalted) since the arabs use another word for "god" which is "ilah".

Now let me ask you a question, answering this honestly.

Why would Allah(,may he be exalted) kill his son for us? Imagine a father who has alot of kids, one of these kids are really good and kind and the others are horrible and evil. What if the father locked in the innocent one into a room and started beating him over and over again because one of the other sons came home in the middle of the night drunk?
Is that fair or even logical? Why, why O you learned people didn't Allah(may he be exlated) accept the invocation of Jesus(may peace be upon him) when he BEGGED for him to save his life, begging and begging and praying with his face on the ground while his followers were asleep, why would he put out armed guards if he wanted this. Why would he do all that effort to save him self he really wanted to die, why, Why would he "say": "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" when he was on the cross if his dying for our salvation? Or was he saved and the prayer of this great man was accepted?

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,[Quran "Women" verse 157]

Tell me - honestly because the only thing I want is guidance and I ask for this everyday when I pray "Show us the straight way"[The first chapter-Quran]- what I am doing wrong?. I am praying like this man did, praying to the one whom he prayed to. Following the laws of his God in peace while sumbitting and offering all my love to Him. But I do deny 2 major things, and these two things are :
a) Allah(may he be exalted) has a son.
b) His son is my Savior

Concerning the first one, it says clearly:
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, - Numbers 23:19
Concerning the second it says clearly:
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 43:11)"

When his followers asked him about eternal life he told them to follow the commandments and to worship God but he did't tell them to believe in him being sacrificied nor did he tell these people(Im thinking about the man in Luke 18) to worship him.

18. A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19. "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
20. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "

So tell me, Cambell, Tom, Alsharad and ms.Klees, why should I follow something other than this?

"Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will). [interpretation of the meaning Quran 3.64]"

 

Ahhh... the Jesus Seminar...

Did you know that some of the "scholars" that support/present this book have no background in Ancient Hebrew, Ancient Greek, 1st Century Culture, 1st Century history, etc. There are college students with ungrad degrees in ancient history that are more qualified than some of the "scholars" that produced this work. By the way, the Jesus Seminar has specifically stated that they espouse philosophical naturalism. This means they reject, a priori, the possibility of miracles (which would, by definition, include the transmission of the Qur'an).

And the New Testament is repleat with talking of the Father's agape love. Agape love is universal and completely unconditional.
I would like to address a specific issue though, the word "because" is causal in nature, it is NOT a part of a condition. A condition is "If a, then b" or some variation thereof. The statement "a happened because of b" in no way implies that "a" is always conditional of "b," it simply means that "b happened to cause a." For example, if I say "I was hurt because I fell" it indicates that in a specific instance, I fell and that as a result of it, I was injured. It doesn't imply that "If I fall, I will be hurt."
Do you have an example of actual conditional love recorded in Scripture that are on the same level as
"If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins."

Yep, as much as He loves you and me.

hy·per·bo·le (h-pûrb-l)
n. A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.

He doesn't want us to hate our parents, He wants us to love Him so much that, by comparison, our love for for parents is hate. He was using hyperbole.

I didn't think you would agree with what I said. So, you worship a God that has conditions that you must meet before he loves you. My God, on the other hand, loves me regardless of my attitudes toward Him.

I am not saying that one is better, just wanting to make sure that we are on the same page.

I just cannot seem to get away from discussions about the Trinity (not that it is a bad thing). Christ is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God. All three are completely God ad they completely indwell one another. The fullness of the Father and the Spirit are within Christ, Christ fully indwells the Father and the Spirit, and the Father and Spirit completely indwell each other. So, no one has seen the Father (incorporeal spirit, big surprise, huh?) but they have seen Christ. If they have seen Christ, then they have seen God (but not the Father).

Nope. He was and is always God.

I don't think most Christians claim to be God or even A god. God dwells within us and comforts us. He guides us. There is definitely a distinction between having God dwell in us and *being* God.

Again, if God is a triune being this is not an issue.
And you still haven't answered my question:
If Christ was a good teacher and a prophet of Allah, then why, when He was accused of claiming to be God, did He not deny it? How hard could it have been to correct them? People said that John the Baptist was the Messaiah, but he simply corrected them and no one made any bones about it. Christ could have done the same thing when the priests accused Him of blasphemy by claiming divinity. Why did He not set the record straight? As a prophet, wouldn't He be compelled to speak truth?

The analogy is seriously flawed in regards to the Christian viewpoint. The Father has only one begotten Son. And the Son wasn't forced to be punished for our misdeeds. He volunteered before the foundations of the world. If a judge wishes, out of love, to voluntarily stand in judgement for the guilty, who is to say that is unfair?
There once was a man who got a speeding ticket. When he appeared before the judge, the man pled guilty and the judge passed judgement and issued a fine. Out of compassion for the man, the judge reached into his pocket and handed the guilty man the money necessary to pay the fine and said "there, I have paid your fine for you, let's go get some lunch." This is completely analogous to what God did for us. He issues judgement, but He also paid for every one.

There are a couple of responses to this, but the long and the short of it is that it was a tough burden to bear and, although He was God, He was also a man. The stress must have been tremendous. However, let's not forget how He ended His prayer. "Not my will, but thine be done." The model of humility.
When the armed Peter used his weapon, Christ healed the wound and talk Peter to put up his sword.
Christ might have wanted to save mankind, but only a really twisted person would have looked forward to being crucified (especially in the first century when it was a serious shame).

He was quoting the Psalms when He said "My God, My God..." He was also praying to the Father. This is perfectly okay within the Trinity.

Other than simply stating it, what evidence can be given for this? The scriptures clearly state that He died and was buried and rose again on the third day.

The law cannot make you free. It cannot save you. God's goodness and holiness are so far beyond ours that even our best behavior is but a filthy rag to Him. We cannot earn heaven because nothing we can do is good enough. How good is good enough to satisfy offenses against a perfectly just, completely good God? As a Muslim, do you have any guarantee of salvation prior to death? Do you have any assurances this side of the afterlife that you will be going to heaven? How do you know when you have been good enough?

23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,nor a human being, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not establish it?

This passage is still missing some context, but the idea is that God does not lie nor does He need to repent, as a mankind does. The passage indicates that God is faithful and true. Again, the Godhead is NOT Human in the sense that it is beyond our total comprehension. However, it doesn't imply that God could not become human. It simply states in a literary fashion that God is not like us.

That's right. Beside God, there is no saviour. Christ is God, therefore, He can be, and is, our savior.

Context, context, context. Let's here the rest of the story:
18:21 The man replied, "I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws since my youth."
18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

For this man to go to heaven, he had to follow Christ, not simply obey the laws. In fact, the rest of the passage goes on to have the disciples point out that they DID leave everything. Christ then says that they will recieve much more in heaven due to their devotion. Either way, following the law just doesn't cut it.

 

Read the quote again. Jesus says he and God are one, and that he and humans are one. Thus, a=b=c.

 

Jesus did not want you to love him more than your parents (unless it was necessary for you at the time). This just means that a happy 6 year old kid is not yet ready to learn about (hungry for knowledge of) the deeper things of God that Jesus taught.

God creates something to express God's will (the world, me, Jesus, you). All the actions that I do are caused by God, so for Jesus to deny being God would be incorrect for his actions are the actions that God has planned for him to do for us. God's hand is in all things.

It is not blasphemy to claim to be created by God. I am divine.

Whatever, that's just Jesus loving God and enjoying seeing God's will carried out in all things.

Why must you call Jesus twisted? WHY!! WHY! OMFG WHY!

All you have to do to get in heaven is have God take you there. It is foolish to do something you do not want to do when God offers you other choices. Sometimes you eat the asparagus and enjoy it.

 

The 'trinity' has become a cornerstone for Christians defending their faith, but where does Jesus ever endorse this concept as succinctly as his believers do?

 

My apologies for being unclear. The *original* transmission from Gabriel to Mohammed is denied by philosophical naturalism. Angels (at least, their interactions with humanity) are supernatural creatures. Naturalism denies the supernatural a priori. Therefore, a naturalist denies the possibility of angels and/or their interaction with us. No interaction means Mohammed made it all up.

Do we have any copies of the text that are dated before 900 AD? I have heard this given as the earliest date, but doubt the source. How old are the earliest texts that we have?

Two things:
1) A covenant of love doesn't mean that love was promised due to the covenant. The actual Hebrew[size=-1] phrase means[/size][size=-1] "the covenant and loyal love." The phrase is a hendiadys ([/size]a figure of speech in which two words connected by a conjunction are used to express a single notion that would normally be expressed by an adjective and a substantive, such as grace and favor instead of gracious favor.)[size=-1]: the first noun retains its full nominal sense, while the second noun functions adjectivally ("loyal love" = loving). Alternately, the first might function adjectivally and the second noun function as the noun: "covenant and loyal love" = covenant fidelity[/size]. Even then, it is the *covenant* that is conditional, not the love upon which it was founded.
2) In order for a covenant to exist both parties must promise something. Even if the covenant is to love, then God unconditionally loves everyone. Why? Because God *keeps* the covenant with those who love him and follow His commandments. Those people who do not love and follow Him, have broken the covenant. But to be broken, it must exist first. Therefore, God already entered into a covenant with them meaning that, at the very least, He already loved them in spite of them not keeping the covenant. He, by your interpretation of the passage above, only stopped when they broke the covenant first. He knew that they would break it and yet entered into the covenant willingly. Why? Because He loves us not based on our actions, but because He loves us because it is His nature to love us.

If you truly believe, those things would be reprehensible to you. However, even if you did those things, God could forgive you. Could Allah not forgive someone who repented? Christians repent out of love. Out of recognizing that we have hurt the one who loved us unconditionally. We see that Christ had to *die* in order to pay for what we did. This weighs on our hearts. It brings conviction. Repentence comes simultaneously with salvation. It is both a prerequisite and a result. But unless someone genuinely attempt to walk the walk and live under Christ then you would have a hard time convincing me that they believed.

Christ prexisted creation along with the Father and the Spirit. He voluntarily took on an *additional* nature (that of humanity). How does that limit His being God? Let's keep going though, there is more below...

I don't think that you understand the Trinity. God is one substance, one divine essence, one entity. However, within this entity, there are three eternally distinct persons. These persons are completely unified and yet capable of relationships with each other. They can communicate with each other, yet, their essence and nature is the same. So, the Father can talk to the Son and the Spirit, etc. When Christ prayed, He spoke with the Father. It didn't make Him not God, it simply means that He was speaking to another person in the Godhead. Therefore, He was not talking to Himself, but to someone else. Yet both of them shared the same essence and nature. They were/are ontologically identical.

I didn't think you would. However, it does answer the objection. If God is a Trinity, then would you agree that this is a reasonable and possibly accurate response?

And this undermines the authority and accuracy of the gospels how?

Wow. So Paul corrupted the Scriptures? That is a pretty tall order. Can you please cite your evidence? I really would like to hear how "money and power" got into it. And the evidence which indicates that somehow Paul altered the gospels. Oh yeah, and how a *pharisee* would *ever* interject polytheism into *anything*.
By the way, if the early Christians didn't believe in the Trinity, then there were some MAJOR problems because they worshipped Jesus Christ as God and still worshipped the Father and Spirit too. Yet, they were still monotheistic... hmm...

How is having no assurances that you will get to heaven better than having the assurances? I would rather live my life knowing that I have been forgiven than trying to work toward a goal that I have no idea if I can reach. That's like running a race in the dark. You will never know if you have reached the finish line.
I admire the continuous striving that many Muslims make in trying to attain heaven. Our fundamental views of God are different. That my God loves me unconditionally with agape love means that my works are works of gratitude and altruism. I give of myself not because it benefits me (by getting me closer to heaven), but because of the gift given to me for my benefit.

Imagine a king that had a wonderful prize was in town. He sees a beggar on the road.
Islam: The beggar tries to approach the king. He then tries to placate the king so that he might be given the prize. The beggar must spend his life trying to earn the prize and even then, depending on the nature of the king, the prize might not be awarded. The beggar will not know whether he received the prize until he dies.
Christianity: The king approaches the beggar and, realizing that the beggar cannot help himself, hands him the prize. The beggar accepts the gift and, out of gratitude and love and admiration, pledges his life to the service of the king.

I do worship the Father, just as Christ did. Christ also claimed equality with the Father and that He and the Father are One. I worship Christ alongside the Father and the Spirit because they are one God.