I know there's a lot of people here who have strong feelings as to whether or not the state of Israel should exist. For the moment I would like to set that issue aside and deal with the reality that Israel actually does exist. So my question is this: How do you solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Quite frankly, I have no idea what the solution is. Please note that I'm not looking for "they should all coexist peacefully" answers, but rather, actual proposals for a plan of attack, so to speak, to solve the problem. The way I see it there are four possible schools of thought on the subject: 1. Arabs should kill all Israelis 2. Israelis should kill all Arabs 3. Israelis should pack up and leave 4. Israelis and Palestinians should find some way to live with each other Now here are the basic problems with each: 1. Aside from the fact that its wrong, it's been tried, several times, and the Israelis have demonstrated that they know how to defend themselves. 2. Again, aside from the fact that it would be wrong, there are a hell of a lot of Arabs in the world, and the Israelis would have quite a task in front of them. 3. First off, would you want to leave your home of 50 years? And second, where would they go where they wouldnt be pushed into the sea by the people there? 4. It's been tried, and every time there is some major sticking point that they won't agree on. Plus, with the underlying ideologies at work over there these days, there needs to be a way to make people less hateful towards the other side. This is why the topic is so touchy, and why running around with posters that say "free Palestine" does nothing to help the actual situation. Again, I'm looking for real plans here, not dreams. Let me know what you think!
The 'REAL' plan you are seeking is that Isreal needs to give in too - most recently it has been Isreal who has been unwilling to budge not Palestine.
Israel is the real problem, though the media would have you believe otherwise. The Israelis need to give the land back to whom it belongs, which are the Palestinians. That is if they ever want to see peace. Israel deserves all they have gotten, and it's only going to get worse before it gets better.
So the concensus so far is that the Israelis need to leave. That still leaves millions of people homeless. Where do they go? Add to that the fact that most people living in Israel today has as much right to call it home as you do America. the state has been around for over 50 years and most of the people who originally immigrated there have now died or are very old. I havn't researched the most recent attempts at peace, but I never said anything here about which group is doing better or worse. You'll notice on this topic I have not taken any side whatsoever. I'm trying to stay neutral on the topic. Also, Pressed Rat, are you suggesting that Israelis deserve to die? For wanting to have a place to call home? That doesn't sound like 'peace and love' to me. Once again, I'll reiterate: I'm looking for plans to fix the problems. If you merely want to point out problems post somewhere else. I'm looking for someone who thinks they might have a solution to those problems. And if you believe the solution is the extermination of one side, say so. I'm looking for solutions.
The establishment of a Palestinian state is a plan - the plan was presented and Sharon agreed to it - its not like the plan was for Isreal to give up their entire nation - they were asked to leave gaza and parts of the west bank. Sharon agreed, his advisors balked. This was a GOOD plan, one that I personally believe would exponentially reduce tension in the area. Does it suck that Isrealis would have to move out of their homes in this region? Sure it does, but if it produces a more peaceful region in the long run - then its for a good cause. The formation of Isreal 50 years ago was a good thing, but the measures for how it was established where not. The Western world new very little about the area around that time. Now that it is more understood that yes it is TRUE that most of the contested areas were historically the property of Palestinians, the land should be returned to them as a physically recognized state. This is the first step towards peace in this region as well as the single Greatest move towards the United States gaining some respect and credibility in the region.
The correct thing to do 50 years ago, if the jews were to have a homeland, would have been to give the jews a piece of Germany. After all, it was Hitler and the Nazies that committed genocide against the jews, and it was the German people who let it happen. That would have been justice. Maybe should have given them Bavaria...or the Rhine...or some other chunk of the country. Kick Germans out, like the Germans did to so many others. But the Germans were too much like other people in the West...Hitler always did say the anglo saxons (british and america) were brothers to his Nordic germans. Also the Germans shared too much culture with the West, and too many of them were Christian. So justice was not done. Instead, there were the palestinians, who were from an Arab culture that the West felt was inferior. The jews were allowed to kick the palestinians out for their jewish state, when of course the palestinians never did anything to the jews. So the jewish solution to the oppression of anti-semitism was to become oppressors themselves. Looking at it objectively one might consider the founding of Israel to be an act of hypocrisy and a serious mistake. Perhaps the endless nightmare in the region is not a surprise, but an inevitable outcome. It seems that politics is usually heavy on hypocrisy and for politics to screw up big time is normal.
Darsunt, do you know the history of the modern Israeli State? In 1948 England pulled out of Palestine and their was an Israeli state and Palestinian state. About a week after the forming of these states Palestine attacked Israel with the aid of every other arab power in the region. Israel defended it'self with little foriegn aid if memory serves correct. So the Israelis never kicked the palestinians out they defended thier nation and then kicked then out. Do you balme Israel for this? I don't. Then came the year 1956, Nasser (egpytian leader) Blockaded a sea knew the suez canal which shut down a major Israeli trade route. Again every Arab in the region attacked Israel, with the backing of the Soviet Union. America decided to help Israel and Israel won yet another war. Then in 1967 Israel attacked egyptian in the 6 day war, due in major part to the build up of Arab forces on the Isreali border. Again Israel with British centurion tanks kicked arabic ass across the Sinai Peninsula. In short, Israel has earned there state, it was their's long before it was arabic and they were long overdue thier ancient homeland. Arab countries also constantly refuse Palestinian immigrants access hoping to start yet another war one day with Israel. Now can you really say Israel abused the Palestinians? No they don't. The Arab brothers to these oppressed arabs are the real villains, not Israel.
Wonderful idea Durast! Lets put two factions who hate each other passionatly (at the time they did remember) right next to each other and see how long before war breaks out again. This is the problem with religion. It tells people that they are suppierior and they are right thus they deserve it. This is not just Judeism but everywhere, ESPECIALLY with Christians. They are to inherit the earth! But back to the point. This is again another situation where the US is where it doesnt belong... as usual. Without our support how long would it be before the Isrealis are screaming for peace. And if we love them so much why not give them a piece of America? We could give them PART of a state and it would be larger then the area their fighting over. Greivious do you remember before that? The Isrealis were located there
I think the best solution would be for Israel to build their security wall on the pre-1967 border and tell the Jewish settlers in the occupied territories to either evacuate or fend for themselves.
Send most of them back to South Africa where they came from in the first place bringing their apartheid mentalities with them to only fuel the problem.
Go here: A LONG thread about this very subject, you're better off contributing to it since it is already full of opinions and ideas than starting this one: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4270
Let's not make this a matter of ancient birthright and similar wistful rhetoric. I've argued this before, the Jewish claim to Israel really isn't that legit. Saying the Jews own Israel/Palestine because they lived once there eons ago isn't all there is to it; you can't ignore the fact that generations of Arabs have also made that area their home, too. True, the Jews were forced out of Judea long ago by the Romans, but it's sort of a "what's done is done" scenario. White folk supplanted the Native Americans in North America, and the Aborigines in Australia, and are now the dominant group in each of those areas. Would it perhaps be just to kick all the non-aboriginal peoples out of those places and reinstate the original inhabitants? Not quite, since now you're supplanting generations of people who have also lived here, though their forefathers may have stolen the aboriginals land... and besides, you can't kick everyone out, it's impossible by all practical means. So going back to my point, the Zionist idea that the Jews have a sacred, unquestionable birthright to Israel just doesn't hold. While I'm kinda tempted to say that the US should just leave the Israelis to their own devices (I agree alot with Pressed Rat that the Israelis deserve alot of the shit they've gotten lately), I think the solution is (sorry, it's the only real solution, in my opinion) to somehow eventually bring about that magical scenario where Israelis and Palestinians are miraculously coexisting peacefully, or at least aren't at each other's throats. Obviously, this would take a long while and probably won't happen anytime in the first half of this century. How would it happen? Well I don't have any detailed blueprints laid out, after all this is a famously difficult conflict to try and mediate. One way would be a de-escalation of militancy on either side, and of late, particularly the Israeli side. The stupid wall isn't going to save them. Eventually one side's going to have to realize that more and more arms is not going to win, or at least a victory wouldn't be worth the destruction. The Palestinians have to lose their militant side, or the Israelis need to get rid of people like Sharon and curb the political power of the ultra-Zionist Ultra-Orthodox groups (who are little or no better the Islamist supremacists). If the fighting on either side doesn't show signs of subsiding, then it's a real toss-up of what should happen. A friend of mine thinks it may reach the point where some international force of some sort should come and force the two sides to live in their respective zones at gunpoint, and even create a neutral, demilitarized zone. But I wonder who the hell would be willing to enforce such an occupation... wouldn't that be an ultimate soldier's hell, being picked at and bombed by both Israeli and Palestinian extremists. Sorry that I haven't provided any detailed plans... I don't think anyone has an amazing magic solution to the Israel/Palestine dilemma.
Okay, dhs, I've read over the plan and I agree with you. It would have been a step in the right direction, though I doubt the 'security wall' will do much to help either way. And sorry if it sounded like I was snapping at you. I was mostly snapping at Pressed Rat. And LuciferSam is right. This was too tall of an order for any of us to solve, but that was half my point for posting this. There are a lot of folks out there who run around to rallies with their "Free Palestine" signs who don't even understand the nature of the conflict. It gets a lot of media attention, but the media can't solve a problem like this. No matter what you think the solution is, you're not gonna solve the problem without actually working on it. So was this a pointless topic? maybe. But I'm just trying to get people to put some serious thought into it rather than just shouting slogans.
OK, I have an idea. Take the area known as Israel and the occupied territories. Divide it up into, say, 12 equal areas land-wise. The people of each area get to vote for 2 representatives. These representatives will be the Senate. Also, each area gets to vote on a number of representatives based on that area's population. These representatives will be the House of Representatives. Additionally, there will be national elections for a President and Vice-President. Blah, blah, blah. What I'm getting at here, is how come nobody suggests simple democracy or a republic? You'd think good ol' America would be all for it. Or parliamentary style as in the UK. Israel doesn't seem like a democracy at all. I guess it's some sort of socialist theocracy or something. Just give the Palestinians a say in the government. It doesn't have to be the Israelis versus the Palestinians. Why can't it just be a government based on the wishes of the people who live within those borders? Going beyond the fact, of course, that the leaders of both sides are hard-headed assholes.
Israel will never give full citizenship to the Palestinians in the occupied territories, because then it would no longer be a distinctly Jewish state. This makes it all the more asinine for them to try to hold onto these territories. It's in their own best interests to withdraw entirely, but their right-wing zealots won't allow this. They're obsessed with the fantasy of annexing all this land and deporting all non-Jews, i.e. all Christians and Muslims. (One can believe almost anthing else and still be considered "Jewish" under Israeli law.)
Why are all of you so harsh to a nation that was born into war? Israel has never had peace because ignorant muslims start religious wars against Israel, and Israel becomes a villian for defending it'self. Don't tell me the bullshit about Israel abusing the palestinians, if the palestinians could stop blowing shit up i'm sure Israel would allow peace.
Being Jewish, I consider Israel to be my homeland. Hwever, anyone who knows their history knows that the Muslims are our BROTHERS. Abraham is the "father" of both Jews and Muslims through his sons Issac and Ishmael. We have no reason to fight.
I am not tempted, I am saying it. WHY should the US be involved in this? Neither the Israelis or the Palestinians have any interest in peace. They seem to somehow take a sick pleasure in this War, and they have been fighting for this miserable swatch of land for over 4,000 years. Let them handle it themselves. There will be no resolution, but I don't want my tax money being wasted on these people who don't WANT peace. They are adults, let them handle it themselves. It is not our responsibility.
