Today, as you're possibly aware, marks the anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi concentration camp at Belsen. My great uncle was there. He was so traumatised that he refused to talk about it right until the day he died. The holocaust has shaped many of my opinions regarding human nature and our capacity for cruelty. Today, we live in a pampered society and can hardly imagine the horrors of the past. But civilised times promote civilised values. In different times, different values prevail. It always strikes me that the Nazi camps are seen as a peculiar horror - a historical anachronism perpetrated by monsters. I never viewed them that way. The true nightmare of these camps for me was that they were built, maintained and staffed by normal human beings. The Nazis didn't have some secret supply of monsters; they just had ordinary Germans, Hungarians, Poles..... These weren't aberrations, they were people like you and me. They just happened to grow up in different times with different values. What they were capable of, we'd be capable of in the same circumstances. The moral of this story then is that anyone has the capacity to be a monster. We try and fool ourselves that we're civilised, but the beast is just below the surface. That doesn't mean we can't avoid such a fate and struggle to be better than that, but we need to understand exactly what we struggle against. We need to understand our nature in order to overcome it. Please find some time to read the following links. Not only because it's important to be aware of this terrible history, but it's also important to remember that this is the ultimate destination of hatred. Every time we worry about immigration, every time we call homosexuality a deviation, every time we see someone else as 'different'..... these things may seem harmless in themselves, but the road to Belsen started with such small steps. Don't think it can't happen again. Introduction to Bergen-Belsen 'I have never seen such horror in my life' Cannibalism in Prison Camp - British Medical Officer's Visit to "Most Horrible Place" Audio slideshow: Liberation of Belsen 1945: British troops liberate Bergen-Belsen I hope, like me, you still can't read these reports without crying.
Thanks for those links Dok I read all of them and it got me thinking about human nature. I mean, what is "human nature" if there even is such a thing? Are we really all just sheep who folllow the dictates of whoever we elect as a ruler? Do we just thrive on moral panic? Are we generally a good species that gets sidetracked by circumstances, that the evil things we have done are purely a result of problems in society leading us into making poor decisions? ... Or are we inherently bad, that it is society that keeps us under control and that we have to constantly battle against our own primeval instincts? Ultimately I wonder if our conscience has evolved in any way? Have we really learnt anything from history? Would the people who found the holocaust acceptable still find it acceptable today?
I think we have an immense capacity for compassion and kindness. However, I think when circumstance pushes us towards acts of cruelty, the implicit permission that we receive from society to perpetrate those acts allows us to suspend our moral judgement and act entirely in our own self-interest, as dictated by any particular circumstance. In all honesty, I'm not at all sure that these questions can be adequately addressed at all. For example, I know for a fact that I'd never willingly participate in any act of cruelty. But how far would I go if my life were threatened? I can't know that without being in that situation. Self-preservation is remarkably powerful. But does that explain the complicity of those who participated willingly in the Nazi atrocities? How many men would rape a woman if they knew without any doubt that they'd never be punished for it nor found out? I bet if you could get an honest answer to that one the answer would shake your view of the world.
Maybe you're right Doc. I can't cry when I read those pages I just become extremelly angry. I have been accused of being equally 'fascist' for my views on what should happen to the far-right. A couple of weeks ago I went to a meeting in London where Morris Beckman who fought with the 43 Group, who as you probably know, were Jewish British soldiers who returned from Liberating Europe and the camps, only to find Mosley and other nasty viruses spreading their race hatred across the country. I kind of feel that the 43 Group's actions against them were understandable under the circumstances. Whether or not these kind of actions against the far-right in themself become de-humanising I suppose remains to be seen, but I think you probably have a point. I'm sure there's a nasty animal in all of us waiting to get out. What really is chilling is the large proportion of British youth who believe that the events in the camps didn't even happen! Now that does make me want to cry.
Anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the dark side I think some people are beyond hope and need putting down. Some cancers need cutting out. It's when we relish inflicting pain or vengeance upon someone that we start on the slippery path. I always ask myself "what does it achieve?". If something just panders to my own base desire to see someone 'get what they deserve', then I generally think it's best avoided. I must be mellowing in my old age, but I don't honestly relish the idea of seeing anyone suffer.
Hitler was a great politician and a fantastic orator. He turned the German economy round 180 degrees in next to no time at all. The people loved him enough to give him dictatorial power in order to defeat the 'communist threat' The German people thought that the Jews were the cause of the economic depression that they were in. So in many ways they could have subconsciously thought of it as a survival issue. Wipe out any threats to the master race in order to survive. I'm not saying it was a justifiation ... I'm saying that its frightening that a series of economic and social events could completely quash the conscience of so many people. In some societies the exploitation of women is fully acceptable ... So on a global scale I wouldn't be surprised at all. However, from a western point of view I really don't know.
Precisely. The economic and social context are often quoted as a way of explaining the holocaust, but the problem is that people were so willing to be led. That hatred and brutality had to be there in the first instance in order for the Nazis to tap into it. And let's not forget that they also killed blacks, disabled people, homosexuals, gypsies..... See, I don't think it was about the German economic depression at all. I think that was just a convenient excuse - for the leaders and for the people.
Reading stuff like that makes you wonder how "Neo Nazis" do it. How can they hate people like that, its disgusting. The Cannibalism In Prison Camp story just makes my stomach turn. Reading about that just makes me think how could someone wish that on someone. I didnt cry, I actually got pretty angry, knowing that there are people today and many in Britain who would willingly follow in the footsteps of the Nazis and kill millions like that. Sickning
I find it quite surreal that for something that happened within living memory, a lot of people completely detach themselves from it and just don't want to know. I also find it scary that more people are willing to participate in the sex forum than to even voice an opinion on this subject. Peace and Love as so many are wanton to preach will only ever happen when we start to confront,accept and deal with the dark side of ourselves and therefore our species.
I just take heart with the hundreds..if not thousands of people that chose to save lives.. even if they were ordered to take them.
Yeah, couple days ago, it was the anniversary of the liberation of Buchenwald, of Auschwitz.. I think it is really right, that people didn't forget, which terrible things those fucking Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich or Hess (and a looooot of others) did to the people.. And what really scares me, are those neo-nazis.. They still scream that "sig heil" and hate Jews, still think that Hitler was a "good guy".. aaa...¨
That too scares me.. but there are people who ignore the tragedy of reality and focus on some logic that the Nazi party stood for.. you will never get away from the fact that they were a prety persuasive and a powerful influence on certain people. Thats just human nature.
The same way you support certain things.. and agree is no diffrent . As horrid as it is... no i don't understand them either.. Horribly i can see the way people could back them at the time.. Now it is just realy repulsive and has nothing realy to do with the politics or feelings of our time. I think it is a more scarey situation now..because no world war will occur.. just deep rooted unresolved hate that will make society breed hurtful feelings that serve to rip us all apart... I have no ill feelings toward the majority of the german people.. just the few that still hark back to another time. The thing that realy disgusts me is they (British Neo Nazis) think they are saving there countries 'pride'... Millions of people died for them and they think they are in some way speaking for them.. crazy.
That's possibly the most ignorant and offensive thing that you ever said. Of course, the millions of Jews who died didn't think that it was anything to do with the politics of their time either. Right up until the gas chambers served to illustrate their mistake. Hundreds of thousands of Jews failed to make any attempt to escape because they had no concept of how bad things were going to get. Most of them certainly never anticipated the horrors of genocide. To sit there and say "it has nothing to do with the politics of our time" is exactly the attitude that will allow it to happen again. Large trees start as small acorns.
The German goverment did not make it hard for Jews to leave and there intentions towards certain groups was not in question. I am talking about it being at odds with current political thought in german and uk politics and not being a growing or even grumbling undertone within german/uk society. These people are following a regime or doctrine that is completly out of date.
It's not a 'grumbling undertone' because current economic and political conditions aren't condusive to such attitudes at the moment. The doctrine/regime isn't 'out od date', it's just irrelevant in the current climate. That's not to say that the problem could not arise in the future, which is why it's important to familiarise ourselves with the history and make sure we avoid sowing the seeds that lead to such hatred. Please Matthew, if you've nothing sympathetic to say then could you please leave this thread? This is something that's very important to me and I'm finding your attitude quite sickening. If you can't say anything constructiver I'll just be forced to delete the original post because I'm not willing to have you turn such an important topic into another fucking bout of bickering.
We can familarise with what ever we want.. it won't be us distorting or following past events..it will be those idiots following practices and ideals given to them by a party that followed its own twisted political ideals garnered from other twisted political thoughts.. you must agree none of that is new and it will or won't happen even if we do or don't wish it. I am sorry if it seemed like i was not being sympathetic (i am)..i am not trying to argue with you...i was giving my thoughts to what jana said.. thats all.
I agree with that up to a point, but such twisted ideas are only able to grow in a culture that's prepared to accept such values. As individuals, we're able to contribute towards the creation of a culture where the intolerance and hatred are socially unacceptable. We're not there by a long way, but that doesn't mean that we should stop trying.
