Are any of you guys messianic jews? like you follow all the old testemant laws and traditions but believe that Jesus is the christ and savior
i am an Ebionite[size=+2][/size] [size=+2][/size] [size=+2]FAQ[/size] from http://www.ebionite.org/ What is the goal of the Ebionites? We have several related goals: The promotion of monotheistic Yahwism (Judaism). The promotion of this to gentiles The restoration of the good name of Yahshua ben Yosef as a righteous Jew This necessitates the deconstruction of the mythological "Jesus" of Christianity, disproving that Christianity is a biblically related religion. Social justice based on honesty, and love in the context of the Bible (Tanak). What the Ebionites are not. There are a number of Christian derived fringe groups who have misrepresented themselves as Ebionites. They are often "pentecostal" "non-denominational," "right-wing" conservative, anti-government, anti-authority, and apocalyptic if not gnostic. They commandeer the name Ebionite to further another extremist agenda. Some of these groups maintain relations with other extremist groups, and began as extremist Christians. Their current incarnation is often just a modification of the former state. Don't be misled by others calling themselves Ebionites. This website is the total representation of the Ebionite Community under the authority of the Ebionite Paqid. And the Ebionite Community represents the Ebionite faith today. If you have questions concerning someone representing themselves as Ebionites, or the standing of a person to represent the Ebionite Jewish Community, contact us. Are the Ebionites Jews? Judaism is a type of Yahwism that became highly developed subset of the Biblical religion described in the Hebrew Bible (called "Old Testament" by most Christians). It began in earnest a little before Christianity did. People of the tribe of Judah (Y'hudah) with remnants of other tribes of ancient Israel returned from captivity in Babylonia, and so Yahwism came to be represented by these Yehudim ("Jews"). In a broad sense, anyone practicing a version of ancient Yahwism today are referred to as "Jews" and in that sense, Ebionites are a type of "Jew," but more specifically Ebionites are a type of Yahwist, embracing the ancient covenant of circumcision and covenant "Law." There is no single type of Yahwism today. Most people are familiar with the "rabbinic" variety of Yahwism. But there are other varieties, most notably the Qaraites (Bnai Miqra, or Karaite Jews) and the Evyonim. [size=+1]Are the Ebionites Christians?[/size] We are in no way Christian or supportive of Christianity. We consider Christianity to be a type of Mystery Religion devised by Paul of Tarsus and others. We believe that there is no relationship between Christianity (actually better described as Paulism) and the man Christians refer to as "Jesus." For that matter, since Christians often claim that "Christian" means Christ-like (that is like "Jesus"), it is most unfortunate that there are few who could honestly make that claim. Some scholars categorize the ancient Ebionites as Christian or Jewish-Christian. That description is unjustified and untenable. In fact there is no such thing as a Jewish-Christian just as there are no Muslim-Christians. Do Ebionites believe in Jesus? Depending on what you are actually asking, the answer varies. If you are of the fundamentalist Christian belief, I will save time for you, and say, No, we do not believe in Jesus. Jews, and anyone who believes in the existence of God as presented by the Bible (Tanak) cannot possibly believe that there is more than one god; and believing that God was birthed from between the legs of a human mother and sacrificed himself to himself for another person's sins, dying, is not only absurd, but an insult to the intelligence God gives at least some humans. While such ideas appealed to the pagan Greeks and Romans, and other superstitious peoples who were raised on fables of gods having intercourse with mortal women to produce semi-divine offspring (to cover up the products of adulterous human affairs), Jews would never accept such nonsense. Jews are able to handle only one God at a time. Do Christians really believe in such things?! On the other hand, from what can be reconstructed after demythologizing the gospel and removing the fabrications of later gentile scribes, Jesus can be seen as teaching many good things worthy of emulating. And this is what he himself asked his followers to concentrate on. It did not matter what honors they paid him if they did not follow his teachings he thought. And his teachings were those of a Jew who was expecting the end of the world as Jews knew it, and hopefully the beginning of an age under the Jewish Messiah. But truth be told, Jesus has been made into something very disgusting and pagan by Christians, and very dishonored by them. The closest religion to the teachings of Jesus has always been biblical Judaism, and embracing Judaism is the best way to embrace Jesus. [size=+1]Was Jesus the Messiah? [/size][size=+1]Jesus was not the Messiah. There is no Reign, no Kingdom of God on earth. Christians have a problem of putting emphasis on people, but it is a bad practice by anyone to put so much importance on an individual whether it be a Christian or Jewish sect. We feel that the important thing is every person's relationship to God and in the Messianic Age the best relationship will be realized for the entire world in a time of wisdom, peace, and the knowledge of Yahweh and His commandments. Jesus knew this and wanted to see this age come also. [/size] [size=+1]He realized that the way to bring this age was to devotion to God and our fellow man and not in force of arms, strife and hate. Today most Jews believe that righteousness on the part of Israel will signify that mankind is ready for the Messianic Age, and speak of "bringing the Messiah." This is what Jesus wanted to do also. And so do we. And in that sense, the work of Jesus was messianic, and wherever he succeeded he was acting as a messiah---but was not the Messiah who will actually begin that Age.[/size] [size=+1]This was one of the problems Christians had with Ebionites in ancient times. They criticized us for the belief that anyone could be a messiah. They were fixated on an individual, not the Reign. They did not understand that Yahweh empowers individuals only in that they help bring His desires to fruition to aid His children. Jesus was empowered to try to convince people to look to God and repent and prepare for the Reign of God. Instead Christians made Jesus into an idol.[/size]
I hate it when people throw around terms they do not understand. Assuming that a deconstruction of Jesus can even be performed (which I seriously doubt), how could this possibly contribute to the "restoration" of His good name? I am starting to think that perhaps it is the Ebionites' failure to believe in Mystery that is the problem. Now I am quite convinced that that is the problem. Yes. Only Christians believe in such things.
oh...let's add fuel to this fire... Are messianics Jews? are they Christian? what I saw at the Seder says they are Christian. The claim was they were still Jews (OK, more than half the congregation is Gentile) but accepted Yeshua as a savior who died for their sins. Er... that is the definition of "Christian" is it not? if a Jew converts to Islam, that individual doesn't have the cheek to say they are still Jewish. Why should this form of apostate be allowed?
Comments on the Ebionites When Jesus came, many Jews wondered if he was the reincarnation of one of the prophets. Some wondered the same thing about John the Baptist. Jesus affirmed to His disciples that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah the Prophet. The beginning of Christianity stands two figures: Jesus and Paul. Jesus is regarded by Christians as the founder of their religion, in that the events of his life comprise the foundation story of Christianity; but Paul is regarded as the great interpreter of Jesus' mission, who explained, in a way that Jesus himself never did, how Jesus' life and death fitted into a cosmic scheme of salvation, stretching from the creation of Adam to the end of time. The doctrines of Christianity come mostly from the teaching of Paul, who claimed to be a Pharisee who rejected his Judaism and converted to his vision of Christ, thereby writing or influencing most the books chosen for the New Testament. There was in fact three main early churches, those of Paul, those of the Gnostics, and the Jewish-Christians sometimes called Ebionites. (Meaning "poor men?") Jesus' actual apostles in the gospels are often portrayed as doubters and even stupid, never quite understanding what Jesus is saying. Their importance in the origins of Christianity, are at best marginalized. For example, we find immediately after Jesus' death that the leader of the Jerusalem Church is Jesus' brother James. (Acts) In the Gospels this James has almost nothing to do with Jesus' mission only given a brief mention as one of the brothers of Jesus, who allegedly opposed Jesus during his lifetime and regarded him as a nutcase. But Acts (supposed to be a historical narrative written by Luke) tells us after Jesus' death James, a brother who had been hostile to Jesus in his lifetime, suddenly became the revered leader of His Church. Like so much else, this isn't explained. Let us remember that according to scholars all the gospels were written after Paul's writings, there are no originals. In fact James is a subject, some Protestants in particular, wish would just go away. The most likely explanation is that the near erasure of Jesus' brother James (and his other brothers) from any significant role in the gospel story is part of the downplaying of the early leaders who had been in close contact with Jesus whom regarded with great suspicion and dismay the Christological theories of Paul. Paul flaunted his brand new visions in interpretation of the Jesus whom he had never met in the flesh. The church fathers wanted the Jesus of Paul, a neoplatonic savior-god that offered salvation at no effort other than faith and through the church. They didn't want the Jesus of James, a Jew that wouldn't let them escape the Law, which held one directly responsible for their actions. James and the other apostles were in fact bitter enemies of Paul. Jesus and his immediate followers were Pharisees who like the Zoroastrians (Persians) believed in the resurrection of the dead. (The Sadducees rejected this and were at odds with the Pharisees.) Jesus was a rabbi who probably had no intention of founding a new religion. He regarded himself as the Messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term, i.e. a human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as "the kingdom of God") for the whole world. Jesus believed himself to be the figure prophesied in the Hebrew Bible who would do all these things. He was not a militarist and did not build up an army to fight the Romans, since he believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power of Rome. This miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives, as prophesied in the book of Zechariah. Note that Pharisee Judaism is the one that survives today. The first followers of Jesus, under James and Peter, founded the Jerusalem Church after Jesus' death. They were called the Nazarenes, and in all their beliefs they were indistinguishable from the Pharisees, except that they believed in the resurrection of Jesus, and that Jesus was still the promised Messiah. They believed Jesus had been brought back to life after his death on the cross, and would soon come back to complete his mission of overthrowing the Romans and setting up the Messianic kingdom. The Nazarenes did not believe that Jesus had abrogated the Jewish religion, or Torah. Having known Jesus personally, they were aware that he had observed the Jewish religious law all his life and had never rebelled against it. His Sabbath cures were not against Pharisee law. The Nazarenes were themselves very observant of Jewish religious law. They practiced circumcision, did not eat the forbidden foods and showed great respect to the Temple. The Nazarenes did not regard themselves as belonging to a new religion; their religion was Judaism. They set up synagogues of their own, but they also attended non-Nazarene synagogues on occasion, and performed the same kind of worship in their own synagogues as was practiced by all observant Jews. The Nazarenes became suspicious of Paul when they heard that he was preaching that Jesus was the founder of a new religion and that he had abrogated the Torah. After an attempt to reach an understanding with Paul, the Nazarenes (i.e. the Jerusalem Church under James and Peter) broke irrevocably with Paul and disowned him. Indeed, when Paul visited Jerusalem, Jews attacked and try to kill him. Paul is saved only by invoking his Roman citizenship, a citizenship that Jews fiercely hated in those days. Because Paul appeals to Rome, Paul is then taken to there where he undergoes a trial for his life. Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism. In this new religion, central myth was that of an atoning death of a Divine being. Belief in this sacrifice, and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity, formed the only path to salvation. Paul alone was the creator of this amalgam. A source of information about Paul that has never been taken seriously enough is a group called the Ebionites. Their writings were suppressed by the Orthodox Church, but some of their views and traditions were preserved in the writings of their opponents, particularly in the huge "Treatise on Heresies" by Epiphanius. From this it appears that the Ebionites had a very different account to give of Paul's background and early life from that found in the New Testament and fostered by Paul himself. The Ebionites testified that Paul had no Pharisaic background or training; he was the son of Gentiles, converted to Judaism in Tarsus, came to Jerusalem when an adult, and attached himself to the High Priest as a henchman. Disappointed in his hopes of advancement, he broke with the High Priest and sought fame by founding a new religion. These accounts, while not reliable in all its details may be substantially correct. It makes far more sense of all the puzzling and contradictory features of the story of Paul than the account of the official documents of the Orthodox Church. The Ebionites were stigmatized by the Orthodox Church as heretics who failed to understand that Jesus was a Divine person and asserted instead that he was a human being who came to inaugurate a new earthly age, as prophesied by the Jewish prophets of the Bible. Moreover, the Ebionites refused to accept the Orthodox Church doctrine derived from Paul, that Jesus abolished or abrogated the Jewish law. Instead, the Ebionites observed the law and regarded themselves as Jews. The Ebionites were not heretics, as the Church asserted, nor "re-Judaizers," as modern scholars call them, but the authentic successors of the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus, whose views and doctrines they faithfully transmitted, believing correctly that they were derived from Jesus himself. They were the same group that had earlier been called the Nazarenes, who were led by James and Peter, who had known Jesus during his lifetime, and were in a far better position to know his aims than Paul, who met Jesus only in dreams and visions. Thus the opinion held by the Ebionites about Paul is of extraordinary interest and deserves respectful consideration, instead of dismissal as 'scurrilous' propaganda -- the reaction of Christian scholars from ancient to modern times. The Ebionites and the existence of the Jewish Church itself still haunt the churches of Paul (Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox) to this day. The Ebionites and others were declared heretics only on the basis of the "say-so" of the church and its self-chosen counsels. God decides, not the churches.
Chief, can't you at least try to be a bit more creative once in a while? Copying and pasting the same bogus drivel ad nauseum is tedious and tiresome. Having said that, I have some time to kill, so I'll go ahead and respond to some of these lame assertions. Jesus spoke repeatedly throughout the Gospels about his prophecied death and resurrection. He made a point of stressing that he came into the world for this very purpose. Their greatest confusion concerned his repeated predictions of his death, which the author previously denied that Jesus ever mentioned! First, Acts is widely regarded as one of the most reliable ancient historical documents. (Do a web search on Sir William Ramsay, for example.) Second, James' conversion is explained in 1 Cor. 15; he was a witness to the resurrection of Christ. Third, the abrupt ending of Acts strongly suggests that it was written while Paul was still on trial in Rome. Moreover, Paul quotes Luke 10:7 as Scripture in 1 Tim. 5:18, indicating that this Gospel was already in circulation. This is a completely unfounded load of crap. Read Acts 15. More utterly baseless speculation. Jesus focused on the prophesies of his atoning death, much to the disappointment of his followers, who had much more earthly ambitions in mind for him. Again, read Acts 15. Chapter 10 is instructive, too. James and Peter observed Jewish ceremonial laws only to gain an audience for the gospel with observant Jews. See also Acts 21:17-26, Rom. 14, & 1 Cor. 9:19-27. I guess Paul also wrote Is. 53, Acts 2-4, the Gospels, etc. Compelling! What textual evidence is there to support these claims that Ebionites preserved the "true" teachings of Jesus? I find it a bit comical that you've made the exact same claim about the Gnostics! Have you changed your mind, or do you just get your kicks spouting esoteric diatribes?
Messianic Jews, Jew for Jesus, etc. etc. These are all fronts for organizations which are trying to convert jews to christianity. They incorporate some of the jewish rituals and attempt to bury the beleif in Jesus just deep enough to suck some jews in. Check it out... http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html
There's nothing secret or sinister about Jews for Jesus. Like the first Christians, they are Jews who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is their prophesied Messiah. The alarmist response of their critics is mind-boggling. Why can't these reactionaries engage in reasoned theological debate, without resorting to character assassination?
I dont wanna start a fight but isnt that christianty then? if your a jew and belive in jesus that makes no sense.... Im a confused 15 year old boy , im jewish yet i dont belive in , jewish religion.. I belive in the earth , and how god is an essence thats around us , and life is like a house filled with doors living a normal life we can only open the doors a little while if we take some drugs etc , like hallucagins we can expland the door and see the whole room. lol well sorry for that but before i learned that isnt the whole point of being a jew is youdont belive jesus was the messiah?
