Has anyone ever read about these two figures? AKhenaten was called a heretic Pharoah due to his preaching of a ONE SUPREME GOD. He had the first monotheism. Which is disguistingly similar to the religion of Moses. Also the banishment of Akhenaten from Egypt is like only 100 years away from MOses and his exodus. Many historians see this parallel and to me it it is alarming. I really think they were the same guy. ALso the knowledge of Kabbalah is really close to the Egyptian mystery cult knowledge. Which is only accesible to priests and the Pharoah. Also even a little fun word play is Pharoah, and the jewish high priests PHARisees. Please respond this will be a fun discussion.
Nimrod, I'm by no means a traditional Jew, but it does not seem like you know much about what you're talking about. Akhenaten united the Egyptians in the worship of Ra invoked as the sun god Aten, symbolized as a disc. I have not seen anything to suggest he fled. You may have been reading pseudo-histories which will string together any sources that might support a pre-concieved belief. While there is a possibility the Hebrews were influenced by Akhenaten's Egypt, there's also a possibility they were not. The answers are not clear. Also, it's quite likely Judaism began as henotheism and not monotheism. " ALso the knowledge of Kabbalah is really close to the Egyptian mystery cult knowledge. Which is only accesible to priests and the Pharoah. " Kaballah as we know it developed much later. The earliest form of mysticism we know of is merkavah mysticism, which is based around Ezekiel's vision of the divine chariot(merkava means chariot.) Modern Kabbalah really takes shape with sefer ha-bahir which is explained here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=126&letter=B The merkavah mysticism is explained here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=479&letter=M and while there may be Egyptian influence on mystic practice, that does not suggest that it is direct. " Also even a little fun word play is Pharoah, and the jewish high priests PHARisees." I don't know Egyptian but in Hebrew Pharoah is spelled PH R A(it's an Ayin) H whereas in Hebrew pharisee is P R SH and just so we're on the same page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees They are not high priests. A priest is a kohein. There are still kohanim today, but they don't do that much in the absence of the beit hamikdash(Temple.) A high priest is called a kohein gadol. At the time of the pharisees, their opponents were the saducees, who were often preists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees Dauer
Yea I guess I read something different than you Dauer. Also every search I make shows that he is a Heretic King and that he his mummy was not present in his sarcophagus in the 1900s. THere are accounts of him fleeing to the north of Egypt, to SINAI?!!? I mean I dont know, I just think its to much too be coincidence. Look up Ahmed Osman's book Akhenaten/Moses. Sigmund Freud even believed moses spent time in Akhenaten's court. Also there are accounts historically refering to Akhenaten returning to claim his throne with a serpent sceptor. Which is remarkably similar to moses confronting Seti 1 or Ramses (not sure). "Akhenaten's monotheism came to be as a result of 1500 years of Egyptian metaphysical speculation, for which we have detailed record of the sun's progress from god, to principal god, to universal god. Did this influence Moses, who happened to be there at the time — or should we assume Mosaic monotheism fell out of the sky onto a convenient mountaintop?"
There is much missing from the tombs of the pharoahs due to looters over the ages, and with the negativity surrounding him, it is certainly a possibility some Egyptians may have taken it upon themselves to destroy his mummy. What accounts do you have of him fleeing? What Sigmund Freud believed about the guy really has no relevance to my understanding of Akhenaten. That's just name dropping. You can also look back and notice I never denied Jewish monotheism owes to Akhenaten's Egypt, but said that it's only one possibility. It's also possible, going along with modern biblical criticism, that Judaism began as henotheism and gradually evolved into monotheism. Uniting the people under one God and centralization of worship could have been a way to control the people, but it may have been for another reason also. Monotheism seems like it may have begun to develop under the first exile, where the Jews developed a new theology that said God had not abandoned them, was still their God and the God of everything, and was testing them. This is different from the other nations who either abandoned their gods when conquered or continued to worship them as part of the conqueror's pantheon. I don't know about the sceptor. You'd have to give me the reference. Also, it's not conclusive who Moses was supposed to be confronting, if it was supposed to be a specific Pharoah. The name in the Torah is simply Pharoah. Dauer
the dauer, According to dictionary.com hen·o·the·ism Pronunciation Key n. Belief in one god without denying the existence of others. The point I was trying to make is that Akhenaten's Atenism, was the first monotheism, no where anywhere else was there a one powerfull super-god. The Israelites didn't have one, neither did the Egyptians, harrapans, Aztecs, and Babylonians. Which existed around the world all around the same time, you know the first awesome ancient cultures. So My question would be how on earth would the hebrews develop it through moses and their faith during the exodus? If moses had never learned it previously, If I am correct he was the (according to the Jewish documents) VERY FIRST TO REVIVE THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM. I really don't know much about the early early days that supposedly Abraham existed in UR. (Other than the fact I stated right there) so I don't know of a link between Abraham and Akhenaten, but that is not my point. That is what I am trying to research now. Back to the original point. For an exiled Pharoah (which if you make any search all say he was banished or retreated on his own to a land NORTH of Egypt. As will be stated in the following paste I made from a summary of Ahmed Osmans book. This is just plain fact according to Egyptologists. "Akhenaten and Nefertiti had six daughters and a son, Tutankhaten. Pharoah Akhenaten closed all the temples of the Egyptian gods and built new temples to Aten. He also ran a household that was distinctly domestic - quite different from the kingly norm in ancient Egypt. One many fronts he became unpopular - particularly with the priests of the former national deity Amun (or Amen) and of the sun god Ra (or Re). Plots against his life proliferated. Loud were the threats of armed insurrection if he did not allow the traditional gods to be worshipped alongside the faceless Aten. but Akhenaten refused, and was eventually forced to abdicate in short-term favour of his cousin Smenkhkare, who was succeeded by Akhenaten's son Tutankhaten. On taking the throne at the age of about 11, Tutankhaten was obliged to change his name to Tutankhamun. He, in turn, was only to live and rule for a further nine or ten years, meeting his death while still comparatively young. Akhenaten, meanwhile, was banished from Egypt. He fled with some retainers to the remote safety of Sanai, taking with him his royal sceptre topped with a brass serpent. To his supporters he remained very much the rightful monarch, the heir to the throne from which he had been ousted, and he was still regarded by them as the Mose, Meses or Mosis (heir/born of) - as in Tuthmosis (born of Tuth) and Rameses (fashioned of Ra)." Now after Akhenaten had screwed up so badly by saying there IS NO GOD BUT GOD, worthy of getting run out of town, and his son King Tut being the biggest controversy of the ancient world. He probably would not want to risk doing it again, and he obviously knew with his monotheism he was onto something. SO when he rounded up the slave israelites and took them with him to escape, THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN SAY A HENOTHEISM SPAWNED JUDAISM. Because only logically would Akhenaten have said well THERE IS AN ALLMIGHTY SUPERGOD AND AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE IN HIM YOU CAN ALSO WORSHIP ANY OTHER GODS YOU WANT JUST TO KNOW THEY ARE LESSER THAN THE ULTIMATE super-god. Thus being safe that they wouldn't go against his authority during the so called Jewish exodus. Now that makes perfect sense to me, I can't say if it does to you. And then once AKhenaten/Moses had their trust for however long the exodus took, it then leaned more towards the monotheism again via the 10 commandments, NO GOD BUT GOD etc. Only after they trusted him and knew that his god was succesfull, do to their new freedom would they have begun to go from Henotheists to monotheists. As for the sceptor Ill describe that next post.
"So My question would be how on earth would the hebrews develop it through moses and their faith during the exodus? " Who says that's where it developed? Who says there was a Moses or that anything the text says about him is true? As far as critical study tells us, at that time they were henotheists who did not reject other gods, but only worshipped YHWH as their god. During the Babylonian exile is the time when they most likely developed a theology stating that their God is the only and supreme God. This allowed them to continue to worship him. It is also possible many abandoned him, but that Josiah pulled the people back together with this theology, uniting them when he released the book of Deuteronomy as a "lost scroll of moses". " I really don't know much about the early early days that supposedly Abraham existed in UR." Unlike Moses for whom we can say it's probable there was an historical character, it's very possible Abraham was not. But the mythical Abraham is from Ur. "Back to the original point. For an exiled Pharoah (which if you make any search all say he was banished or retreated on his own to a land NORTH of Egypt. As will be stated in the following paste I made from a summary of Ahmed Osmans book. This is just plain fact according to Egyptologists." What I have found, stated matter-of-factly, is that he died and that is all. That's all we know. Egyptology is very spotty business because so many people have agendas, be it to prove the greatness of ancient Egypt or to prove the biblical narrative. It sounds like he belongs to the first group. I see nothing particularly unusual about the similarity between Moshe and Akhenaten's title as it's long been acknowledged this is an Egyptian title. One of the possibilities is that the authors of the Torah were weaving the gods and myths of other religions into the characters of the narrative in order to show that they are nothing before YHWH. The story of Moshe being pulled from the water, iirc, refers to a myth about a god in the Enuma Elish. But I may have the document wrong. "SO when he rounded up the slave israelites and took them with him to escape, THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN SAY A HENOTHEISM SPAWNED JUDAISM." The problem is that when the Jews were henotheists, so were some of their neighbors. The textual evidence is that before that they may have had a pantheon of gods, or Yhwh may have had a consort. Occam's razor makes yours an unlikely possibility. "THERE IS AN ALLMIGHTY SUPERGOD AND AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE IN HIM YOU CAN ALSO WORSHIP ANY OTHER GODS YOU WANT JUST TO KNOW THEY ARE LESSER THAN THE ULTIMATE super-god." That's not henotheism, and certainly not the one supported in the Torah. It absolutely prohibits the worship of anyone but YHWH. What you suggest is not different at all from most other religions of the time. There's a pantheon with one powerful god at the center. "And then once AKhenaten/Moses had their trust for however long the exodus took, it then leaned more towards the monotheism again via the 10 commandments, NO GOD BUT GOD etc." That's not monotheism. That's still henotheism. It doesn't say there are no other gods. Just that only God can be worshipped. That's what henotheism is. What you are doing is pseudo-history. If you would like more pseudo-history, read "Meditation and the Bible" by Aryeh Kaplan. If it is convincing to you, then you will know that this is why the other was convincing as well. Dauer
What I will say is that it is very possible knowledge of Akhenaten influenced the writing of the bible, as did knowledge of other myth and history, whose boundary is often hard to clearly define for ancient people. They were all reworked together and the bible borrows a lot from many different sources. It's no surprise there's an Egyptian with a snake for a scepter. I'd imagine that's why the scribes wrote it into the story, because it was a known event. That's not to say there weren't actually Jews in Akhenaten's court. It's also a possibility. But I think it's pretty improbable Moses is Akhenaten. Israel was on a busy trade route and would have caught wind of many stories due to this. The similarities in stories between nations in the same region does not imply that the stories are about the same people, or that the stories are about real people at all. Dauer
