Diplomatic Relations with Russia, Ukraine, and the UN

Not shouting - emphasis.
Yes - we all know what Germany did in WW II. But the Germans have not attempted to go down that same path again as Russia has. Germany is not lining up forces along another country's borders to invade - Russia IS. Germany's leaders haven't sent assassins to various countries to poison / kill those who disagree with the German government. Putin HAS.

And remember this - Guantanamo Bay's prisoners are there because of the roles the played in the 9-11 attack or its planning. Any of us in the U.S. WILL NOT apologize for keeping those terrorists locked up. They attacked the U.S. -------- not the other way around.

 

Many of those countries on your map were independent nations before WW II - so they have a 100% right to their own sovereignty as it existed before WW II and Russia annexing them. The U.S. didn't move into Europe and claim lands they freed in WW II. England and France didn't claim Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, et al after they freed those countries. Russia barged in and claimed what had previously NOT been part of Russia prior to WW II.

Your position of claiming those countries were always part of Russia - and should not have their own choice to join NATO - are FALSE.

And WHO moved masses of troops first in this recent sword-rattling?? The Nato forces didn't line up along a border FIRST. Russia did. Because Russia (Putin) wants to invade and "rec-claim" Ukraine as Russian property. Where were the "masses of U.S. and NATO forces" taking up positions that Putin is claiming to defend against???? Answer ....... there weren't any.

 

Yep I agree mate and I am not pro Russian .But they see the West as a threat and if the Ukraine joins Nato that will be tbe straw that breaks the Camels back for sure.

 

I think we're basically characterizing though Russia (Russian Federation) as "undeserving" of consideration.

"But they" this... or "But..." that.

Enough. Let history be history. Russian leadership, Vladimir Putin too..., is ready to lead the real Russia into the future. What's holding them back?

Well, nothing but they certainly feel threatened by NATO. Why can we not fix that diplomatic anomaly...?

----------

The real issue here is "the NATO threat", but it's happening in Ukraine. Why can't we find a way to remove Ukraine from that equation?

We should be able to explain to Russia a gradual adoption of Ukraine won't hurt them or their interests.

Show Russia that this is about business, not capitalism or superiority, no...

If we demostrate to Russian interests that we're not "above" them and that humanity can continue in harmony without incursion, and teach them that we don't mean them harm and we intend to coexist, maybe they'll listen.

The Russian army is big. But so is the United States military. And the lives of Ukrainian men, women, children, soldiers and civillians are irreplaceable.

--------

There is no excuse to continue to berate and belittle the Russian Federation; not in media bullying, or NATO sword-rattling.

They are a sovereign and deserving people. We, as the Western world, tend to treat the two as oxymorons. Well, you can be both, and Russia is...

The time to talk is now! there is not a moment to spare.

 

The crux of the problem is the NATO issue .

I have heard 2 different views on Ukraine joining NATO both of which are conflicting

1) The have been working for years to align their forces to the standards required by NATO which includes uniforms,food rations etc. They have reached this standard and will be joining as NATO has an open door policy .

2) I have heard today from a British former diplomat that Ukraine are about 10 years away from meeting the said standards . This he says may be enough to provide leverage for a diplomatic solution .

I guess we will have to wait and see .

However Joe Biden has come out and said he is expecting an invasion in February .

The Western media in particular the British apart from SKY have their heads in the sand and all they can talk about is whether Boris Johnson sanctioned the evacuation of Cats and Dogs from Afghanistan . I kid you not .

The UK needs to be fully switched on like the USA .

 

The ukraine crisis is a golden opportunity for the American government to divert attention from more urgent issues at home, especially the rising toll of covid casualties at an unprecedented level. I think all this showcases the fact that American military strength has grown at the expense of investment in more important sectors like healthcare and so on.

There will be obviously a lot of embarrasing questions asked by the public devastated by covid, and what better way to distract them then by chest beating over faraway Russia's concerns in neighboring Ukraine becoming a member of Nato. This is an old trick frequently employed by other countries facing increasing domestic pressure.

This can ensure that there will be no dent in the taxpayer money diverted to military funding, and the military-industrial complex corporates and capitalists will be obviously happy and satisfied to see that they have fooled the public once again and contently high-fiving each other.

 

To make matters worse for the US ,they have kind of inherited the role of the Western Police in charge of keeping the West secure . This has been done whilst the European countries have cut back dramatically expenditure on Defence and so I do empathise .

I will give you some examples and whilst Tanks are not the king of the battlefield as yesteryear they give you some kind of measure of the cutbacks .

In 1989 the UK had roughly 1200 main Battle tanks in front line service .Many stationed in what was West Germany . Once the Challenger 3 Tank programme has been completed ,the UK will have just 148 tanks albeit top spec . Even one General has been quoted in saying we dont have enough troops to defend the Isle of White . That island is tiny .

Currently the Dutch have just 18 tanks,Belgium 30 ,Germany just over 200 .

The Dutch tried to buy their tanks back from Turkey and Turkey said No !

The European countries have gambled and may cost them dearly yet.

Even if Putin doesnt invade ,then he has still won in a way as these countries will spend more on security and therefore less to spend on other things and make their economies weaker .

 

This is a refreshing take on the tension in the Ukraine, Russian Federation, and NATO standoff.

This is from a news agency called Aljazeera. I don't know much about them, but I remember hearing the name floating around consistently when we had troops in Iraq and Afghanistan following 9-11.

This report presents much of the background information that you might be missing.

​

 

Yes and thank you

Aljazeera is however a Qatar based news agency

For me its too anti West .

So I am just careful about the information they give .

I like a balance and for me Sky gives me that and isnt focussing on Cat and Dogs evacuation procedures .

 

Do you folks realize that NATO was formed as a protection against Russian - or any other - aggression from the east?? WW II taught a valuable lesson .... countries with a love of freedom - REAL FREEDOM - need to band together for mutual protection from any other force attempting to take away that freedom. NATO wasn't formed as an offensive, aggressive, land-grabbing force. It's always been a DEFENSIVE force .... against aggression. NATO member countries didn't join at gunpoint - they WANTED to join NATO. If Ukraine wants to join NATO, why should Russia have any say over Ukraine's choice?? Most Ukrainian people don't want anything to do with Russia and it's autocratic, authoritarian system.

 

Ero,

I get it.

Listen, I really understand. But what I'm noticing is that the views you are expressing, no matter what is true, will perpetuate xenophobia; in particular now about "the East", where the Russian Federation is a massive military power, yes, and also a prolific oil source (among other things... I don't know much yet about Russian economy).

I want REAL FREEDOM as much as the next person. I believe in diversity. I don't agree with Russian policies on homosexuality... that seems archaic; at least!

The daughter of a Pussy Riot band member (Russian musical artist) went on YouTube to share they had jailed her mother.

Spoiler

She is young here. And maybe she's misguided and oppositional to the authority of her country because of her mother's punk leanings. But that's normal for her age, right? And it's beside the point.

The point is there are heavy handed policies that differ from American liberal discourse. And I look at Vladimir Putin's Russia, and instead of being angry or saying there's a human rights abuse because of a policy I don't agree with when I look through the Western lens in my mind, I see ambition. I see strength of heart and mind. And I see great ambition. That's the main thing.

So when does that become problematic? When Russian interests encroach on Ukrainian ones. When Russian Federation takes their ambition and puts it in Ukraine's sovereign territory.

There are limits, and the Russian Federation is not seeing the boundary at Ukrainian border the same as others see and know.

But do not throw out the baby with the bathwater... They have a great deal to offer and it's being routinely overlooked.

 

All I am doing is bringing a bit of balance to the table.

In the Donbas Region of Ukraine ,which is on the Eastern side are mainly Russian Speaking people and are loyal to Russia and want to remain part of Russia . The current front line which has been there since 2016 divides this region .Ukraine has only been independent of Russia since 1991 . Therefore Putin wrongly or rightly believes that Ukraine belongs as part of Russia. Russian tank factories are established on its soil. IBMs were based there during the Cold War era.

NATO was not formed for protection against Russia . Its was formed for protection against the Soviet Union which is a big and important difference . In response the Soviet Union set up the Warsaw Pact which is a military alliance equivalent of NATO and this is the crux of the problem, as these countries like Poland later became members of NATO . So you have a situation of today that apart from Belarus and the Ukraine ,that NATO countries occupy all of Russia's Western Borders . That is a problem to Russia as it distrusts the West as we distrust the East . From their point of view they have been invaded by Western armies in the past.
1) Napoleons Grande Armee in 1812
2 ) Germany 1941

So on that basis and from a Russian point of view who's going to say that will never happen again ?

Yes I agree WW2 did teach a valuable lesson . Thats the reason the then Soviet Union could never fully trust the West because they were invaded .

Whilst Nato is primarily a defensive force, so far , their Cold War Doctrine was to use first strike Nuclear Weapons with all the consequences of using them . This was never in the Warsaw Pacts doctrine .

 

This article from Sky News kind of backs up many of my points .

Why is Russia worried about NATO - and what does it have to do with Ukraine?

 

U.S. Dangles Offer to Russia on Missile Checks at Key Bases - Bloomberg

This!*

If they (NATO or USA) can demonstrate that everything is going to be okay, and if they can show the Russian Federation and its leadership and populace (or probably just its leadership) what a Ukrainian NATO membership looks like, and what it means, and what will happen in a variety of hypotheticals, Moscow may be more rational and able to counteroffer and communicate diplomatically.

Russia knows that our NATO stance is not negotiable. But that doesn't close diplomacy with Ukraine. If Moscow understands that it can open diplomatic ties with Ukraine that foster a healthy diplomatic convention for the future of Russian Ukrainian interests, there may be a way forward that stifles future incursions and provides a context for validating ethnic Russians in Ukraine, as well as maintaining the sovereign interests of the Ukrainian territory.

I don't think NATO membership should continue to be viewed as anti-Russian. If there's anything we can do to condemn that perception, I think it would go a long way toward strengthening our relationships in that region.

 

I think we are now at a crossroads and placing Putin in a precarious position .

He realises that Western Sanctions could hurt the Russian Economy . I am guessing the China talks he recently had ,he was seeking reassurances that some trade deals to keep the Russian Economy going were discussed .

I agree with the Western Media that he hasnt enough forces yet to force an invasion .

Ukraine will be no pushover as they have around much bigger forces than in the 2014 conflict with roughly 2500 tanks against Russia's 1000. Where I disagree with the Western Media they state Russia's tanks are more modern . From the pictures seen I have seen mainly T72 B3 types which are in effect refurbished tanks dating back to the 70s . Certainly not their best tanks which are the late marks of T90s and T14s .

The Ukraine have T64s which were refurbished in the last 10 years or so and very late marks of T80s and the new T84. So on tanks alone as things stand the Russians will be hard pushed IMO



There are 2 signs which will trigger alarms and these can be picked up by Satellite pictures .

1) Will be the erection of more field hospitals . I think only one has been seen which isn't enough
2) The formation of vehicles and armour into battle groups . All the vehicles so far are in parking lots in neat lines and are not in battle formation .
3) Artillery taking up their positions at the rear of the Russian lines




To conclude Putin has placed himself between a rock and a hard place . If he starts sending troops home ,questions will be asked .

To invade will mean hardship for the Russian Economy for certain and he will get a bloody nose as well. The Ukrainians will fight with more determination as they will be defending their beloved country . The Russians whilst having numbers are conscripted troop being multi national as well making Command and Control more difficult . They will be of course lesser quality and may be fighting for something they may not believe in .

To be continued .

 

No matey, you have no concept of the Russian psyche. The Ukraine was and always will be Russian. Remember Russia fought against the Nazis mainly on ukrainian soil to free Ukraine from the fascist yoke. They paid dearly for their efforts in the greatest tank battle - Kursk wherein many 1000s of Russians died.

Russia merely wants a return of that which was taken from them in 1991.

 

I fully agree.

This position is precarious.

The two options discussed here are not good options.

There has to be a way forward that does not bow to Western influence, does not destroy the sovereignty of Ukraine; at least not by invasion, and that doesn't hinder Russia's interest in acquisition of real estate in their part of the world.

This is about recognition. This is about respect and that is something people don't really understand.

Except France.



This picture tells me a story. It shows that France understands with clarity Russia's role in our global society on a more realistic level. They are in talks to find a future that includes the Russian Federation.

Similarly, German leadership has tried to acknowledge Russia, however I don't agree with the 'helmets' strategy... It's inadequate for what Ukraine is facing.

What we have now is two pictures:



The world is watching, and it feels like an arguably American jingoistic rhetoric is leading us in the wrong direction.

 

Это должно быть?

I feel like that is where Russian interests collide with NATO though.

Ukraine is not part of Russia. Not since '91.

We have to find a way forward that acknowledges that.

 

Not again ??? - Didn't US jingoism lead the UN into war in Korea, and then very nearly lead us into world war again in Vietnam !!!