The Cost Of Enjoyment.

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Gangster Guru, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Yes, Bach's music is certainly very Lutherean, and Bach is really one the most important composers in the history of western music. Personally I prefer the renaissance masters I mentioned before, but that's nothing to do with it being Catholic, only a matter of personal taste. I find that acapella type choral music very relaxing and even meditative. Sometimes I have it on as a kind of ambient music - can't really do that with Bach as I find his music tends to claim all one's attention. I'm not saying that Bach was inferior to Palestrina and Co in any way. He took it all to new levels.

    One story about the papacy and their stack of music - one piece, Allegri's 'Miserere mei' was liked so much by the upper echelons of the church that they reserved it for performance only in the Sistine chapel. No copies were made for wider distribution. As a youth, Mozart was taken to Rome, and after hearing it performed twice was able from memory to transcribe the entire work. Maybe it's an apocryphal tale, but possibly not.

    In recent times Britain gave the world the music of John Tavener, whose style is very much influenced by Greek Orthodoxy. Whilst I have many reservations about Orthodoxy, I think some of his output is truly great music which does have a definite spiritual dimension. Maybe though sacred music and choral music in general is an acquired taste. But once bitten by the bug............
     
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  2. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    I kind of agree. I do try to give what I can to various charities of my choosing, even though by no stretch of the imagination am I rich. Some of those donations are to causes such as homelessness, others to wildlife preservation and similar things. I do it really out of common humanity, I'm not expecting any reward in the hereafter. But probably the whole notion of charitable giving can be traced back to Christianity, at least in western countries. I actually prefer to live a relatively simple life. I'm fortunate, because I don't have responsibilities these days that demand lots of money. My only daughter is fully independent, and somewhat better off than dad.

    Ged is another Brit, and the situation for us is slightly different than for you Americans. We have to pay national insurance through our working lives, and a state pension is payable on retirement, which if one is frugal, one could manage to live on. Increasingly, people are also encouraged to take out private pensions. Same goes with healthcare. We pay taxes that support the NHS. If one is rich, private medical cover is also an option. But thanks to post WWII socialism, everybody can get care if they need it. Needless to say, that gets right up the nose of the right in this country, but although they starve the Health Service of proper funding, it's very popular, and to privatize it is really difficult for them without alienating millions of voters.

    We now have our own 'Robin Hood' in the shape of Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the labour party. Most younger people voted for him or his party at our recent election, which to me is great news, even if he failed to win by the narrowest of margins. Next time he might do it. And maybe we can then try to reconstruct something resembling a fairer society where people are valued because they are people, not because of the size of their bank balance. May, our current PM is a vicar's daughter, and makes sure we all know that. Her predecessor Cameron also claimed he is a Christian. But their party seem to take a very un-Christian stand in their treatment of the old, the poor, the sick. They seemingly value money above everything else. There seems to be a massive disconnect between their concept of Christianity and what at its best I understand it to represent.
     
  3. fundoo

    fundoo Members

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    I just want to say first and foremost that I love how the Hip Community can be so mature and/or at least so respectful of different views and if I was to share...

    But without getting into anything debatable, I would just suggest, as others have said or eluded to, to share some of what you have. Not all of it, not even anything that would be difficult for you to sacrifice, just some regular charity or investing it in some good cause. You can also share non monetary things like your time and your talents to just make you feel a bit more balanced. But no, I don't think you should feel bad to be well off. Just be thankful, and sharing kinda does that.
     
  4. fundoo

    fundoo Members

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    Again, not getting into any moral discussion here, but just wanted to point out that this ...how did I say it in my mind earlier?? Umm... well, this was an exciting read. Haven't heard or read these names in a long time. Kinda rusty now, but yea, I can read this and remember that clearly! Victoria...i seem to recall enjoying something of this. And Bach's organ works...ah well you mentioned choral here. What was it pastorale or something?? I don't remember! But something like a "church" musical (??) Nevermind.

    Mozart is just perfection! But that was a bit later, wasn't it? I have a recording of Magnificat right? Seems like it was a Bach/?? Combo recording. Why is Victoria ringing a bell? That was earlier wasn't it?? I honestly could just go in the next room over and look this stuff up, but let's pick your brain Instead! Lol nah, no pressure tho! As I said, I am rusty, so you could tell me anything. Lol :)
     
  5. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Briefly - the composers I mentioned from the renaissance - Palestrina, De Lassus and Victoria all lived in the 16th century, the late renaissance period. Generally, medieval, renaissance and early baroque styles are lumped together by musicologists under the heading 'early music'. In the later 16th c.as the style changed away from the renaissance baroque was born. The technicalities of this are a bit obscure, but its to do with compositional styles mainly. The same thing happened in art too, and architecture. The baroque style superseded the renaissance. Monteverdi is a good example of an early baroque composer.

    J.S.Bach lived from the late 17th to mid 18th centuries. He wrote many different kinds of music, much instrumental music, and also choral works, the most famous of which are probably the oratorio's such as the Saint Matthew Passion.His B Minor mass is also a very celebrated piece. Personally I like his motets, of which he wrote many, but only 6 survive today.
    Bach contributed a great deal to the development of music in general. Often he's cited along with Mozart and Beethoven as one of the 3 greatest composers. Certainly he did a lot of the groundwork that later composers built on. His career spans both the late baroque and early classical periods.

    Mozart was born in 1756. He is definitely one of the greatest of musical geniuses of all time. Technically his music is simpler in form than Bach's, but that's not a criticism, and it all sounds effortless, whilst with Bach I get the impression he had to work a lot harder. Again, he wrote all kinds of music, instrumental, operas and sacred works. His Requiem Mass is probably the best known of these.

    Tomas Luis De Victoria (sometimes transliterated as 'Vittoria') was a Spanish composer of choral music who was active in the 16th and early 17th centuries. His music is all in the renaissance style. Along with Roland De Lassus who was Flemmish, and the Italian Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina, he is widely considered as one of the leading composers of the period.

    I hope that answers some of your questions.It's easy enough to find out more if you want to, but I'm happy to talk about all this if I can help. Here's a piece by Victoria I like very much and which is typical of his style. The art is 'The Annunciation' by Fra Angelica.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkLJPcfttfY&list=PLH21Rp2_jPpgvgGWOXYZFupEz7E3SQCVo&index=25
     
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  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    This is all true but remember that the early Christian church considered musical instruments to be heathen.
    And so on...
    This was one of the reasons for the development of Gregorian chants.
    It could be argued that the Enlightenment had more to due with classical music being introduced to churches than actual religious tolerance.
     
  7. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
    Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
    Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
    Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
    Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
     
  8. fundoo

    fundoo Members

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    Not really in the mindset to respond with anything clever, but enjoyed that and I did remember O Magnum Mysterium, except that I remember a different version by ?An unknown? (I may never figure it out) but then I heard of the Victoria version. Got briefly excited, and then realized it was different. Don't get me wrong, this is a good one, i just had really liked that other one. :/
    Still have to look up this pastorale...
    Ok, again, not thinking now or have much time, but this is what I was talking about.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastorale
    Christmas Concerto (Corelli...but I thought Bach did this too. Hmm I could be mistaken)
     
  9. Ged

    Ged Tits and Thigh Man.

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    I am "Just making a go of it". I inherited a house which I can't sell yet because my Mum's partner still lives there. I can't throw him out on moral grounds because he and my Mum were together for over twenty years. Plus he's old and sick. We don't get on at all but I couldn't make him homeless. Part from that, well, I have enough money to pay the bills, put food on the table,and pursue my hobbies which are art and music. I have no children, so I don't run the cost of that. I'm lucky in a sense that I only have myself to care for.

    I get free healthcare with the NHS, which is still a marvellous institution even if it is increasingly under threat from this current Conservative Government. I should add that I am British. When I get to be an old man I will get the state pension.

    When I said "I live a life of luxury compared to many around the globe", I didn't mean to imply that I am fantastically wealthy. Rather that anyone living a well provided for life in a first-World capitalist society is by definition tapping into a wealthy system of goods and services. I have electricity and running hot and cold water on tap. I have access to practically any foodstuffs you can think of online and delivered to my door. Also electrical goods, etc.

    This is all be because of how capitalism works, enabled by a sophisticated means of production and division of Labour, such that someone on a relatively low income such as me can access a lot of product. For example, if I buy a new TV for £400, I am buying a product that would've taken millions to develop.

    What I am saying is that the totality of my relations with all this product makes me something like a consuming g and desiring "machine" in the "system". It is a privileged bubble that sustains just by being born in the UK, which is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the World.

    We all know there are hundreds of millions of people around the World who do not share these material comforts, many even lacking clean water. My question is how can I enjoy what I have without the guilt trip? Even though we all know a single individual such as myself can't give rise to societal change and a fairer way of life?

    By "enjoying" I don't necessarily mean indulging in material and sensual gluttony, I mean just letting oneself be able to enjoy a good life in a responsible and considered way.

    If I am healthy and happy, I am one less problem for other people right? If I can get to that stage I am then more in question position to help others. If there is a God, which I am somewhat agnostic about, ( my religious beliefs are constantly shifting here ) does that God want me to suffer at the plight of others, which serves nothing, or does that God enjoy through me as I enjoy my provision?

    Get my drift...

    This is what I mean by the cost of enjoyment.
     
  10. thefutureawaits

    thefutureawaits Members

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    You sound as if you have no faith. Enjoy the fruit age of your hard work but always put God first and you will be ok. Love ❤️ your God with your who heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself
     
  11. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    There is some church music that features instruments from the late renaissance and the early baroque, which would pre-date the enlightenment. Monteverdi's 'Vespers' of 1610 for example.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespro_della_Beata_Vergine

    Even if we push the date the enlightenment began back to the 1620's, it can't really account for that. I think it's more to do with the development of culture and music in general.
     
  12. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Yeah, well the church evolves in some things.

    Way back in, oh probably 64 or so, we got a new young priest in our Roman Catholic, church. He introduced a few changes (my sister and I may have been the first, [certainly very early] lay people to carry the wine and whatever up to the alter).
    Another change was a folk mass every Sunday.....with a guitar!

    Needless to say he lasted about a year and they sent him to South America as a missionary.
    He came to see us one Christmas with a S.A. rebel from somewhere, they were hitch hiking across the U.S. to raise money for some rebellion.

    Last time I talked to him, a couple years ago, he was just out of jail for protesting something down in the Carolinas.

    Now they have guitars and stuff like that at mass and no one blinks an eye.
     
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  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    I think you're more of a saint than I am or I daresay most of the other folks offering you advice, so unless you're bucking for canonization, relax. It concerns me that you may be suffering from a form of OCD known as scrupulosity, most typical of Catholics who believe that works as well as faith are important for justification. Obsessive concern with perfection can produce unnecessary anxiety that is spiritually unproductive. Saint Paul, Saint Augustine, and Martin Luther suffered at one time from the same disorder, and found a cure in the fact that their sins were taken away by Jesus. I think Thefutureawaits has given good advice in this instance.
     
  14. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to enjoy something you would want for everyone else. I wouldn't call enjoying a simple life that is possible for anyone to attain a sin but rather setting a good example. I don't think dropping everything and walking among the poor is going to clear your mind up any so that you can know how to assist them. I would wager that you have to be at peace with yourself before you can really help anyone else.
     
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  15. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    I recall at age about 14 or so at school our religious education teacher playing us the whole of 'Jesus Christ Superstar' over several lessons. Made it easy for him I suppose, and probably the idea was to try to get us to relate to Christianity through rock music. Probably given the fact that we had to sing a couple of hymns every morning at assembly, and some kids would deliberately sing very loud and out of tune had sent the message that that kind of music wasn't going to do it.

    In the puritan John Bunyan's hymn 'To Be a Pilgrim' there's a line about saving us from the 'hobgoblin'. You can imagine how a bunch of late 60's/ early 70's adolescent boys were going to react to that..........

    My local Anglicanchurch put leaflets through the letterbox advertizing something they call 'messy church' - the idea is I think that you can take kids who can then run wild, throw paint around, make a mess and stuff like that. Have to say it seems to me that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel.
     
  16. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Christianity - and also it's a kind of national trait of the British - sometimes seems to say that unless you're suffering you haven't got the message. I reject this view entirely. Everyone is entitled to their fair share in terms of wealth and other sources of enjoyment. Suffering comes of itself without us having to make ourselves miserable. 'Be of good cheer' Jesus is reputed to have said. Only if you are content and happy in yourself can you really do anything for others, especially on a spiritual level.

    There's a centuries long tradition of asceticism in some forms of Christianity. OK for those who want to renounce the world and live apart in a monastery or religious community, but for ordinary people in the world we need a certain level of wealth just to survive. No reason to feel guilty. Maybe better in fact to view it from a more political level, to see why it is that some have way in excess of anything they could ever reasonably need, while some live in destitution and poverty.
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Around here we have "Happy Churches", that's what the wife and I call them. You can go down the road and run into a Mennonite or Amish "Black Buggy" church then the next thing you know there's a happy church.

    Happy churches are just warehouse type buildings with no built in pews or chairs of any sort, just a flat floor with a stage up front.
    On the stage are various guitar amplifiers and mics for the music.
    I presume Christian rock bands play away during a service...never been to one except for a rummage sale.

    I guess it's all good, but I'm use to the old Catholic High mass with a pipe organ.
     
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  18. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    The people who attend the 'Happy Churches' get labelled 'Happy Clappers' here. But like you my attitude is each to his own. If people get something from it - OK.

    In the rare event I might have to attend a church, I prefer traditional stuff -Catholic or High Church Anglican. Comes no doubt from my mixed exposure to those two when an impressionable child. From funerals I've been to more recently (only time I go really) the Catholic mass is the more impressive.
     

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