Let's Have A Debate About Force And Harm And Why And When It Might Be Ok.

I'm going to quote something I put on another site.




Some people like to be harmed. The amount of which will vary. I speak as someone that is on the receiving end of that. Makes me think there needs to be two definitions of harm. The accepted kind that can be enjoyed or even not be yet is part of something larger, and the kind that isn't wanted or accepted at all.

Would not not harming someone that enjoys being harmed be harmful in itself due to the neglect of not harming?


Now when I say harm I don't mean just the physical. I'm more speaking of the things that might be "pushed" onto another. So this got me thinking, what might we feel like we need to another to do with us? What about our own versions of what's accepted and not by us? enjoyed and not? What if someone needs a none enjoyed thing and for it to not be a bad thing? If someone goes "It's not a bad thing, you won't be hurting me" or "I need you to do this to know you're supporting me" yet that person then goes "I don't want to hurt you" then can it not be argued that it is not looking after another happiness due to the neglect of said seemingly bad or even genially bad activity which might well cause a number of good things afterwards when performed? Be it to attempt to attempt to get ourselves to enjoy a unliked thing more or due to feeling the need for it regardless?

We all have wants and needs. Thing is we all focus on our own over others. Let's be honest, we're all like that. It's natural. But if someone says to me "Do this thing with me that you might not enjoy" and I care for them then I'd certainty at least consider it for their happiness, even if it's a happiness on the further future if not the present. And sometimes people need to be unhappy in the present for that to happen. To take the bad with the good of things. To perhaps even have that happen to know that the other can do anything and have it be accepted.

Now as I said before it's about the ACCEPTED activities. Not enjoyed. Which is why there can be none liked things that are even forced on me. I'd trust another and accept it. It's not about "harm" alone either. Some people don't like to be cuddled. It might be seen as "good" by you but it could be "bad" to them. Perhaps NOT doing a bad thing of mine is why I'm not doing a good version of yours, which we could be both sharing and experiencing together. So this whole epiphany makes me think "People get wrapped up too much in their own opinions of good/bad". I don't know you so I don't know what's good or bad for you. And even if something is good or bad it can be the OTHER thing if approached in a different way or mixed with other things. This simple logic applies to pretty much everything. What's the approach? How is it gone about? Is there another person to be supportive through it? Is it ok to be a monster? Etc.

Now I ask you this. How many reading here pause for a moment and consider "Can we share and trade with each other or am I more interested in my own interests alone"? From my experience the more I keep others in mind and focus on their interests the more they focus on mine. The more one focuses on their own wants and needs alone the less they are able to engage in them due to not focusing on others who could if they were focused on as well. The more one does for me the more I'm willing to do for them. So basically I'll cuddle it up if you give a hard yank on my leash? Not the best metaphor perhaps but you get the idea.

Now here's the debate. Would it be accurate to state that anything, and I do mean anything, is fine and dandy even if it's forced and not wholly wanted/enjoyed as long as it's accepted/allowed to happen? Both of the self and among others. I''m looking for why you might answer the way you do. not just an answer itself.

For the sake of this thread let's have two categories for this. category 1 is on it's own with nothing else involved. I suppose self harming could tie in here. As one example. Category 2 is where it's merged with other things. A punishment perhaps. Something bad (the thing itself) but part of something larger (the performed action being an activity coming from an owner for example). Which would make it a sort of good/bad hybrid of sorts would it not? So with this in mind it makes me think about things done alone and things done with others and how they can be different because of that. Good and bad things alike.

Oh, as for the quote it was because someone said "As long as no one is harmed" about some people going about BDSM activities. Which is what got me to reply as I did, which another poster agreed was quite true. Hence this thread. I think too many people have a "Do it this way" attitude. Good intent? Yes. But what do they say about good intentions? Some types of harm I need in order to prevent greater harm.

If I go "That thing you can do at any time even if I'm not accepting it at the current point in time it's happening" then that's a contradiction, no? In this case I would not want something at the current point in time but perhaps might in the before and after.
Such a thing would also be "fine and dandy" for me. So it's all good. As I would have knowingly gotten into that situation. If someone is tying me down and running a knife along my skin while I'm struggling like a loon I'd certainty call it forced. But then I'm into fearplay. From here any number of things could happen depending on past events. eg: Will there be harm and how much. All "accepted" in the past and future perhaps, but in the present?

Is there even a phrase for something like that? The past/future yet not in the present accepted thing.

 

........



Cheers Glen.

 

Is it going to be one on one, or are we going to have a mass debate?

 

Why not both?

Been having this conversation on another site. It's basically about HOW things are gone about. In what ways. For example, someone has a past of being physically abused as a child. Which is VERY different then how a dom might slap and talk down to a sub. Both of which can be "forced". The former just outright not given a say on and the later could be a "I want it before and after even if not when it's happening". eg: I'm into fearplay yet if someone ties me down and runs a knife along my skin and I'm struggling like a loon it's still forced in a sense even if allowed to happen. Though I would have knowingly gotten into that position so all fine and dandy.

People often experience the bad of things. But that doesn't mean it has to be done in the same way the next time. The approach just needs to be different. What's been bad that can be turned into good?

 

On The "Creepometer"..... 9 / 10.....



Cheers Glen.

 

It's self self self..so if I don't harm.. ( hate that word so I won't use it again) if I won't hurt you, I'm not looking after you, but if I don't want to hurt you, it's tough, it's all about you?
Nah, don't work that way.. best you find someone into that stuff first .. don't you think?

 

That is too weird and about you.. you need to read more, and get out in the real world..
And don't tell me I don't know what your on about...

 

You don't know what you're on about because you're missing the point. I was stating that people often overlook what works for others and how they get too wrapped up in what works for them alone. eg: Lots of people go "play safe" when others might be into not being so safe. That affects a LOT of people other then myself. I'm just using me as one example. This logic also applies to other things however. Safe words or lack thereof. Taboo kinks. Etc. Things that people might advise others to avoid yet not mention "But what if you're into that" or "how can this be a good thing instead of a bad one". Or vice versa.

But you didn't think about others now did you? No, you just try to make it out like it's about me. Well yes, there is me. Logic also dictates there will be people similar to me. And of course it's somewhat "weird" because guess what, my approach is going to be different then yours. What's different and outside of the norm (eg; What one is used too) often gets viewed as negative. Which can result in a lot of people feeling like it's wrong to be what they're into when it's not.

You also don't know it all just because you use the real world excuse. And by using that excuse you are implying I don't know anything. In fact many people engage in activities online which is very much "real". At least in terms of the connections that are formed between people and the reality of what is emotions which physical activities can produce but also done so in text form. Which is different yet can also be similar to "real" world activities. And can also be dangerous if gone about carelessly. But that's another matter.

If I seem vocal about it it's because I've not only witnessed but also been on the receiving end of "You're insane/a danger to others, don't have a dom at all because you don't know anything. Go into the real world and/or get help and forget about me trying to understand beforehand". People that ACT like they understand something they know NOTHING about. Which is what you did with the "real world" excuse. Which would be why I'm feeling offended.

And yes, the more "normal" way of things is important too. But how often do people speak of the "weird" things? Am I never allowed to speak of it without facing accusations at every turn? I could keep to people that "get it" but I wanted to feel involved in a public conversation like other people. Because other peple get to speak about their things without being attacked. Perhaps I failed in the attempt but it would have been nice if you didn't treat me like some sort of "weird thing" just because you don't understand where I was coming from.

I am weird though. But that doesn't mean it has to be bad.

 

I never said it wasn't.

Now about the child abuse. Again, missing the point. I was stating something that had happened to someone. We're into what we're into for reasons and the how and why of it. Not just because it's the thing itself. I'm into fearplay but I also have bad experiences with fear. I viewed a bad thing and thought of ways to go about it differently. Looking on the other side of the fence. How many people do that? Often "bad experiences" are avoided altogether and not thought about much at all from my experience and observations. Just because I compare one thing to another doesn't mean I'm saying they're the same thing. Infact I specifically stated that being abused as a child and being slapped around by a dom is very DIFFERENT. There's the kind of abuse that is never accepted and not given a say on at all and the kind that can be gotten into knowingly. The age and the fact that it's children or not is irreverent. If it's the same with grown adults it's still the same compression. eg: Not given any say on at all compared to having one.

What I was trying to get across earlier is that there's also letting others have a say with you. To "force" something on you. And what do people tend to avoid when speaking of such things? Believe it or not a lot of people like to be "pushed" into things. That affects more then me alone. More often then not any attempts at such conversation often leads to "Consent, consent, consent. Don't do that shit, it's weird." Net result? feeling like I'm not even allowed to talk about it with accusation flung at me.

Now have I explained myself sufficiently or shall i call it a day?

 

Oh, you are going down that path.

Well, I'll first ask the questions:

1, Why do you assume there is any link whatsovever between what happens to a person as a child versus what seemingly may manifest in adulthood

2. Why do you assume any individual knows themselves why they do what they do

3. Is the dominant one the one actually in control?....the dominant one is the one in the end that ends up doing all the work



Someone that gets physically abused as a child is going to get into adulthood and delve into BDSM, you believe that kind of logic because its simpler, and based on a whole lot of assumptions you formed or got from other sources, Just make sure those assumptions are correct, because none of them are.

How do you or any one else really have any idea what percentage of the population are into BDSM, those that get physically abused as a child more likley than the general population or less likely, how does anyone survey the ones that never report that to anyone, how do you eliminate those that lie about their childhood to justify their adult fetishes

Even with someone that was physically abused as a child then in adulthood is into BDSM, how do they themselves have any idea whether or not those two things are related in any way


Druminmamma doesnt know you from a bar of soap, yet she comes along, reads a couple paragraphs, her brain tells her there is a 70% chance this guy is a sub male, regardless of any protests you might have to that effect. Thats is the kind of thing you have to really work out

For me, its closer to 100%, and I dont even need to read most of that, it only took one sentence. Lets see if you can tell me which sentence that is

 

......Unless you like getting treated like that

 

1: Because the person said it's why they're uncomfortable being treated in a different way in a BDSM fashion. They don't want to be slapped around by a dom BECAUSE they were abused as a child. Your move hotshot.

2: Because I know them and speak with them. And look at the how and why of things and lack therof. See 1. I also never said they know themselves. Infact I would state they may not know the differences in this regard (by which I mean they don't know the experiences and different ways fully as only one that has experienced slapping/being slapped around in an allowed even if "forced" manner can). Or rather are too afraid to do so. Which is common. Fear that is. I personally prefer to overcome fears and look at things in different ways instead of going "It's not understood/been bad before so it must always be bad". Which I find has opened me up to a lot of kinks. Other bad experiences that forced me to take this approach tie in that I shall not speak of.

3: This is a trickier one to answer. Both the dom and the sub need to put in some degree of effort to make things work. I think too many people overlook the simple things like "Being emotionally supportive towards each other". If one is there for me as I person I am more willing to submit to them. So it's not just a case of "It's because they're a dom/sub". The moment that logic is used is the moment we lose sight of seeing other reasons for why they do things the way they do. BDSM things can be done because of none BDSM ones and vice versa. One has to care first to be a dom or a sub more often then not after all. You can't just go "BDSM is BDSM and none BDSM is none BDSM" and say that's the end of it. The two can and will tie in. And I'm lifestyle, so they MUST tie in for me. Which makes it harder to explain how the none BDSM and BDSM merge together. But it blends. And affects each other. Working hard in one area? Maybe you'll get "bonus pay" in the other. Also saying the dom does all the work is quite inaccurate. Perhaps if one is a lazy rollover but I like to please my dom. And be pleased in return of course...

Speaking of assumptions the reasons I';m salty is because people assumed I was stating the two cases were the same when I never did. Or otherwise assumed I don't know what I'm talking about when they don't know what the talked about thing even is. You are actually checking in with me first and it is much appreciated.

As for percentages, that's moot. I was simply stating reasons matter. Reasons why kinks or even none kinks might be avoided or pursued. And I was attempting to encourage people to think of things in different ways. What is good that can be bad if done differently and what is bad that an be good if gone about in a different way?

And when did I state I'm not sub? Was you talking about me there?