Antifa Communist Connection

Discussion in 'Conspiracy' started by Fueled by Coffee, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    [​IMG]

    So it appears the violent group Antifa literally stole their logo from the German communist party. Why am I not surprised?

    Did you know you can get away with being a fascist thug as long as you call yourself an anti-fascist? Pretty cool, huh?
     
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  2. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    You can have fascism without communism.
    But you can't have communism without fascism.
     
  3. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    If you're playing spot the difference I've a few.

    Flags are different wavy
    One flag is black
    The written languages differ
    The outter ring are different colors
    The text at the the top are completely different
    Black flagpoles appear skinnier

    :D
     
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  4. deleted

    deleted Visitor

  5. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Haha you smart ass :)
     
  6. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    the history of antifascist action has ties to European leftist movements... This is failry well known, and not a "conspiracy" Most antifascists are aware of, if not actively and vocally proud of, their connection with historical workers movements.

    The badge is a red and black flag symbolising the unity of anti-statist (black) and statist (red) socialists coming together to fight fascism. Many antifascists also wear the iron front logo, which is explicitly anti-communist as well as antifascist.

    I can't believe America is so rabidly anti-socialist that this genuinely contributes a "conspiracy". I guess McCarthyism never really went away. Dem commies is comin' to git yer...

    This is well known, it goes back to the Spanish civil war.
     
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  7. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    It's no coincidence. The average liberal movement of today is essentially communist in ideology, funded from the top of course as it always has been.
     
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  8. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    I don't care where it goes, I wasn't suggesting it be moved, i was just pointing out that it's a touch daft.
     
  9. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    I don't think that this forum is particularly left-wing, I think that there are a quite a variety of views represented here. As a left-winger I often feel that the forum is a very right-wing place, but I suspect that this is a matter of perspective. Looked at obectively there tend to be as many overtly right-wing as left wing posts going up, and a roughly equal amount of support for each. I know the incident that you're referring to, and it seems pretty clear to me that this was an isolated case of a mod taking personal offence to a really daft (possibly trolling) question, rather than an expression of a new authoritarian regime here.

    It's also completely hysterical to claim that this incident means that it is impossible to pose any question that is not gender neutral. There are entire sections of the site that are specifically gendered, and people ask questions that are gendered outside of those all the time.

    As for America being anti-socialist, as an outsider, I think attitudes towards left-wing radicals there are relatively negative compared to European attitudes. I've seen several people (both private individuals and media representatives) refer to someone as a "socialist" as if the phrase is a slur that instantly devalues their position. The overton window in America is decidedly to the right of that in my country (although I'm sorry to say that our window has been creeping to the right basically since 1979 and is on the verge of taking a HUGE step in that direction.)

    I have been personally (albeit tangentially) involved in Antifa shenanigans on this side of the pond. In counter-demonstrations organised against far-right and neo-NAZI groups like Britain First, EDL and other BNP/EDL splinter groups. The main purpose of these activities is to represent physical opposition to the spread of far-right ideologies in Britain and to show solidarity with minorities that Far-right demonstrations are trying to intimidate. I lost faith in it, but I still have some sympathy for their arguments.

    One thing I can tell you is that, much like almost all groups of this nature, Antifa operates with a flat structure. This means that even if an Antifa "Leader" says "I am actually a fascist and support fascism and i do fascist things all day, babydoll" they are still only speaking for their specific cell, which might only consist of a few people, or they might just be talking shite on their own, with no backing from anyone. anyone can call themselves Antifa. Be very wary when right wing press release a story of that goes: "Antifa leader says something discrediting about Anitfa" because they have probably gone to great lengths to pick out someone with very little practical power and are going to try to convince you that they are some sort of Antifa Czar who speaks on behalf of all Antifa groups in the whole of America, rather than the views of them and their three mates who meet in the town hall annex every other Tuesday. Not the hall itself, just the annex.

    Controversial Antifa policies like No platform are controversial within Antifascism too, there's heated debate within the movement, with most liberal antifascists being against such practices. but the militants go ferrit, grab the headlines, press runs with it and suddenly that's what "all antifascist groups are doing". The one disadvantage of a flat structure is that you can't counter a press narrative about you.

    There is an argument that antifaideology is illiberal, and antifascists accept this, but being illiberal is not the same as being fascist.

    Just be wary, and don't get duped, is all I'm saying.
     
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  10. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    Antifa aren't liberals, they are (usually) opposed to liberal ideology on several key issues, but not being liberal doesn't mean that they are fascists.

    I find myself out of place among antifascistas for being too liberal on certain issues. Antifa and liberal antifascist activists (like UAF in England), often find themselves at loggerheads.

    The "not all Trumpsupporters/liberals/republicans" are XYZ argument is perfectly fine, and i agree that it is reductive to label people in such simplistic terms, but these things are best understood in terms of the overton window.

    Not everyone who voted for Donald trump is a Neonazi but his election moves the window of acceptable policies and mainstream public discourse to the right, thereby increasing the legitimacy of extreme-right organisations. Increases in hate crimes and organised far right demonstrations are usually good indicators that your overton window is shifting to the right.

    Antifa No platform/disruption policies are essentially about operating at the fringes of that window, preventing extreme-right groups from organising and recruiting, particularly among working people, and preventing far right figures from gaining platforms that might increase the percieved legitimacy of their views (thereby shifting the window even further to the right).

    As to what you say about PC culture, my experience of antifa is that, for the most part, they couldn't give a fuck about political correctness (or at least it cetainly isn't a focus for them). They are interested in direct action and leave the politics of language to the liberals.
     
  11. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Left wing anarchy is a paradox. You can't have a zero government society with price controls, heavy market regulations, and identity politics without a form of bureaucracy. So I laugh at Antifa members who consider themselves true anarchists.
     
  12. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    "Left and right" wing are simplified terms which cover a wide array of dissenting opinions.

    Among anarchists Anarchism is often more commonly referred to as Libertarian socialism, I.e. a desire for a situation in which workers own the means of production and take decisions through direct democracy, but aren't governed by a state. Instead they favour decentralised, flat organisational structures (worker's councils, trade unions, citizen's committees etc.). They reject the state socialist proposition of a state that governs the economy and dictates to people.

    This is "Left wing" in the sense that it involves the dismantling of wage labour systems and traditional models of capitalism, but is different from many other left wing schools of thought in that it is explicitly opposed to the idea of a governing state.

    It is when dealing with the differences between specific group ideologies that simple terms like "Left and Right wing", although useful in other contexts as a means of understanding, begin to fall apart. A libertarian socialist is violently opposed to a leninist or social democrat, but they would still be broadly categorised as "left wingers" in the dialectic because they share anti-capitalist tendencies, reject traditional institutions of power, are interested in class struggle and reject nationalism, among other similarites.

    However, the statement "anarchists are right wing" really doesn't hold much water at all. Inasmuch as the phrase "right wing" has any meaning, it means a belief in social order and heirarchical systems of governance, as well as a belief in traditional institutions.

    And inasmuch as the term "anarchist" has any meaning, it means the exact opposite of that.

    The term "Right wing" comes from the French revolution, where those in favour of traditional institutions, such as the monarchy, would be seated on the right. the right wing is not where anarchists would be seated. Not then, and not now. The idea that what is referred to as " the right wing" are anarchists because they favour deregulated, laiseiz-faire capitalism is completely wrong-headed. Laissez-faire capitalism is justified because it is viewed as a reflection of the natural social order, of pre-existing inequalities that are only laid bare by capitalism, rather than created by them. this is "Right-wing" dogma in a nutshell.

    A "Right wing antifascist" as proposed by Puff and Stuff would be an interesting proposition, because being Antifascist is primarily a rejection of nationalism, and nationalism and national identity are central tenets of pretty much all "Right wing" philosophies.
     
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  13. Piaf

    Piaf Senior Member

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    No, Mussolini was.
     
  14. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    Well for one the left right divide is a false dichotomy.

    I've always liked political compass.org's political scale with the traditional left/right horizontal scale and a vertical scale added in for authoritarian/libertarian.

    Interestingly enough, political compass.org places almost every US politician, including such evil socialists like Obama, into the right wing, authoritarian quadrant with varying degrees of authoritarianism. Donald Trump is placed slightly to the right but at the very top of the authoritarian scale alongside people like Hitler and Stalin.

    Another person branded an evil socialist by people who dont know what they're talking about, Bernie Sanders, is placed almost right in the middle - a true centrist. Jill Stein, who is probably the epitome of a communist to many of my fellow Americans, is only slightly left of center, and slightly libertarian.

    Not that anyone is interested, but I myself am very far to the left and very libertarian.

    Interesting stuff.
     
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  15. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    It's tough to find a reliable political compas survey. I wouldn't trust one that asks less than 40 questions. I've always found it interesting where people assign certain politicians, writers, and philosophers. And you're right that you rarely see them on the libertarian side. I've taken the survey more than once, and my coordinates if I usually have been in the (x 3, y -8) and (x 1, y-6) range, depending on my mood.

    I have a hard time seeing Obama deep into the authoritarian right quadrant. Which is one of many reasons why I don't rely on these political compass organizations to assign certain people without having them take the survey.
     
  16. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Hitler was socialist too
    [​IMG]

    While he is deemed entirely a nationalist, he was just as much a globalist for taking over Europe.
     
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  17. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    communism isn't the problem. ideological prejudice of organized crime is.

    no offense to any nation, ideology or belief,
    but i do not believe in the morality of killing people for corporate profits,
    nor ideological prejudice.

    i know that no one will say that they do,
    or have we fallen so far that people don't even care ?

    the whole trump+russia thing, isn't because "russia",
    its because ragun handed russia to the russian mafia,
    and now putin is returning the favor
    and we are loosing consent of the governed because of it.
     
  18. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    If we're starting the "Hitler was a socilaist" train of thought, then I'm out. A simple google search or looking up definitions of terms could help here, that's not my job. Have fun.
     
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  19. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

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    You really don't understand what communism is I think. Not that I support any left wing violence but this statement is just silly. Communism is not democratic socialism nor is communism in theory what Russia once was. So I wonder where you get this? I assume you are talking things like Bernie Sanders and the idea of tax paid education and healthcare.

    Why would a system that gives power to the masses and not the wealthy be funded by the wealthy? It makes no sense.
     
  20. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

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    He really wasn't. Why do you think he and Stalin did not get along instead of uniting?


    I assume your implication is that all socialists are like Hitler and therefor bad? That's a pretty weak argument in of itself. As I told Pressed Rat you really don't understand what you say and look for little scarps of information that you think confirm your biases.
     
  21. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    I made the same mistake you did in not realizing this thread was working under a new set of definitions:

    Liberal, communist, socialist, NAZI and left-wing all mean "bad"

    Fascist means "violent" regardless of ideology

    Nationalist and any phrase relating to economic ideology have no meaning at all.

    I gave up and struck for saner shores, I encourage you to do the same.
     
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  22. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    the real problem with conspiracies isn't whether people engage in them,
    but rather that the wrong people are always accused of being behind them,
    often by the very people who actually are!
     

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