Democratic Party

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Scratched, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    That's the new US stance since five states have legalized marijuana. The entire "free world" follows the lead of the US in such things all the time because we have the money and the power to force them to comply. As much as we rant and rave about other countries interfering in our internal affairs we do it all the time without a second thought. Likewise, as much as we espouse free trade, we invented the term "gunboat diplomacy" to describe how we forced Japan to open their markets to us. Jimmy Carter is the one who convinced Haiti to comply with the US demands literally hours before the bombs would have fallen.

    The US doesn't have a democracy anymore, its empire baby and this train ain't stopping until she derails. Republicans running like scared dogs with their tails between their legs from dismantling Obamacare is just another sign of the times. The money is doing all the driving and all the rest is just entertainment for the mindless masses which is why Trump got elected. People at least wanted to see a different show for a change and Trump is finding out the hard way how little choice he has in anything. No support for dismantling Obamacare, no 15 billion dollars for building a wall, and if he rocks the boat too hard with China or Russia he may become the first retroactively impeached president.

    The solution is for the American people to stop playing games with the democrats and republicans and demand their constitutional rights and government be restored but, of course, that's not what any of them voted for and, instead, we've got Trump who is every KKK members wet dream. Another alternative is just to encourage fewer people to vote. The US voter turnout is already the biggest joke in the developed world and if the voter turnout goes down anymore there will be no way to deny we are no longer a democracy if nobody is even voting.
     
  2. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Thank you for clarifying. It seems the U.S. is not currently pressuring Jamaica. Re the bombing of Haiti, that seems to refer to the peaceful and successful efforts in 1994 of former President Carter to restore the democratically elected government of President Aristide, who had been overthrown in a military coup d'etat. No bombing of anybody. Was that a bad thing? As for Trump's problems with the agenda that got him elected, anyone who expected anything different is hopelessly out of touch, but it wasn't so much the shadowy powers behind the scenes that did him in. The man is a corrupt, narcissistic grifter who is in way over his head. The people who voted for him, or who didn't vote at all, or who occupy themselves ranting that the real world doesn't conform to their ideals, will learn the hard way.
     
  3. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    The irony is that Aristide was the duly elected socialist deposed by a military Junta, which is normally something the US would support in the name of promoting democracy, and Jimmy Carter was chastised for interfering in the business of the US government and saving untold lives by convincing the military to surrender. Its the money and the guns doing all the talking worth listening to where words like freedom, democracy, humanity, and capitalism become nothing more than blatantly obvious rhetoric.

    In a similar fashion, Trump's election is an indication that the American public has swallowed their own bullshit and become completely out of touch with reality. They voted the man into office with many of them still insisting he can save them from themselves and their own insistence on suspending our constitutional rights and creating the biggest prison population in the history of the planet. The people actually behind bars are merely symbolic of the fact the entire nation has become a police state and various capitalist interests are fighting over who gets to play the role of Big Brother and enforce what is and isn't politically correct when, of course, political correctness is supposed to be about avoiding unnecessarily provoking people rather than attempting to suppress freedom of speech or impose thought control.

    The idea that the people who voted for Trump will learn anything is about as naive as they come. Reagan is another good example, with virtually all of his economic policies being essentially no different than what any democratic president might have done under the circumstances, yet, to this day he is considered the quintessential republican. Denial is not the name of a river in Egypt, but try convincing the Tea Party of the that. According to the National Science Foundation one in five Americans insists the sun revolves around the earth and, clearly, it is not the education system that is to blame. These people will likely go to their graves ranting and raving that Big Bird is a commie plot, which is fine by me, but Trump is in control of our nuclear arsenal among other things. By merely attacking anything remotely foreign or that they don't understand and controlling the mass media insisting the government and mass media they call evil lie to them for their own good they are perpetuating the denial of an entire nation and ensuring the rich get richer and poor become poorer.
     
  4. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Chastised by whom? If the money and guns were doing all the talking, why was Carter's mission a success? I agree with you that the minority of American voters who elected Trump were bamboozlled, but I think you're exaggerating a bit to call the U.S a police state. As for Reagan, his trickle down economics were actually quite a bit different from those practiced by Democrat administrations, but they set the pattern for Republicans. Trump has proposed budget cuts of $18 billion from programs like medical research, infrastructure and community development grants to help pay for his border wall (forget his promise that Mexico would pay for it.)
     
  5. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    Chastised by the Clinton administration. Carter was successful because he convinced the Haitians they didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell and the US would hunt them all down like dogs if they didn't surrender.

    The US now has the largest prison population in the history of the planet beating out even the Soviets with their gulags. Our constitutional rights have been indefinitely suspended, every cop in the country can now execute a warrantless wiretap or search, the NSA is routinely monitoring a third of the population's emails and phone calls, and the supreme court has held up the right of the police to bust down your door if they just say they smell pot and the right of the courts to force a man to testify against himself by providing the password to his cellphone. The entire voting system has been gerrymandered to death in favor of the republican party, the billionaire mayor of NYC arrested 26 reporters in one day only to receive a slap on the wrist, and bankers who all defrauded the public and crashed the entire economy are still free to do the same bullshit. The US president now has the power of God and can literally torture and execute anyone he wants without even having to tell congress. For their part, congress has empowered the military to round up citizens like so many cattle and made all the necessary preparations. I could go on and on and on with the question remaining where do you draw the line and admit the US is no longer a functional democracy and has become a de facto police state, however, I think the widespread and blatant disregard for the constitution and even forcing people to testify against themselves and imprisoning them in record numbers is enough for me. You could say the US is a "kinder-gentler" police state, but that's only because we are the wealthiest country in the world.

    Trump has proposed everything except shoving every illegal immigrant into a woodchipper but, so far, no dice. Instead, the news is coming out that the man countless women accused of groping them has hosted parties with teen girls and cocaine, the rumor mill has it that the Russians have video tape of him and his sexual exploits, and he may become the first retroactively impeached president in history whose name shall be stricken from all the history books.
     
  6. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    So let's see if I understand what you're trying to say. The Haitian military overthrew the duly elected socialist government of Aristide. The United States was threatening military intervention to restore said elected socialist--which is a bad thing? And Carter spoiled Uncle Sam's fun by persuading the Haitian military to back down. And Carter was chastised for this by the Clinton administration, which would much have preferred military action? Does that make any sense? More to the point, is there any evidence for it? For a somewhat different account, see
    https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/haiti
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uphold_Democracy
     
  7. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    The first sentence is correct. The rest needs work. Our constitutional rights are, for the most part, intact, and violation of them can provide the basis for a civil lawsuit. No cop in the nation can legally execute a warrantless wiretap, and (s)he can execute a warrantless search only if (s)he has probable cause to believe a felony has been committed, or that a misdemeanor has been committed in the officer's presence. The NSA may be monitoring emails and phone calls, if we believe Snowden and Wikileaks. The Supreme Court has authorized forcible entry under the exigent circumstances exception to the Fourth Amendment if the officers reasonably believe evidence of a crime is about to be disposed of, not just because they smell weed. In Kentucky v, King, police officers followed a suspect into an apartment building. They weren't sure which apartment he had entered but said they smelled weed coming from one apartment. After knocking on the door and announcing themselves as police, they said they heard sounds of people and things moving inside, consistent with efforts to dispose of evidence. They broke in, seized the weed and arrested Mr. King. King's conviction was upheld in an 8-1 decision by the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination extends only to testimonial or communicative evidence, not to providing blood samples or DNA. Cell phone numbers fall into the latter category. BTW, Britain, France and other western democracies, not to mention Russia and China, have no protection at all against the searches and seizures you complain about. Under martial law,or states of emergency our civil rights can be suspended, no doubt about that. But if that makes the United States a police state, every other country on earth, past or present, is one as well. And if that's true, the concept of 'police state' has no meaning. Freedom and rights, like democracy, are always relative.
     
  8. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Let's hope!
     
  9. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    The only reason the US was willing to bomb tin shacks and hunt the military leaders of the coup down like dogs is because we wanted our own puppet in office that was easier to handle and provided a more respectable facade of civility. The US simply forbade Aristide from doing anything he had promised during the election involving any socialist agenda which is why the military took it as a sign that the position was open to whoever could take it by force. Similar to Obama being elected and the republican party then proceeding to threaten to bankrupt the government and refusing to allow him to choose a supreme court justice. It was a democracy in name only and the people kept voting socialists into office anyway knowing it was the only way they could protest.
     
  10. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    LOL, you should become a lawyer or used car salesman since you seem to think words are more important than actions. In Arizona the cops decided to go after specific drug dealers using the excuse they could always claim they smelled pot. In one case, they got the wrong address and busted down the door of a veteran of two wars. He shoved his wife and kids in the closet and grabbed his assault rifle and the pigs shot him 32 times in front of his mother. There was, of course, no pot found on the premises and none of the cops was charged with anything.

    The NSA literally plugs their own equipment right into the phone companies equipment and makes no bones about the fact they are spying on a third of the country. Companies such as Microsoft and Google have been increasingly complaining that they are not given a choice in such matters.

    Testimony is testimony, not physical evidence, and compelling a man to testify against himself is still in violation of the constitution unless, of course, you happen to be used car salesman or lawyer more interested in playing with semantics. In this case, they guy claims he forgot his password and the courts are insisting on punishing him for having a bad memory.

    I can see there is no sense in talking to you about such things since you don't seem to value honesty. Please refrain from responding to my posts in the future, however, I realize that might be a bit much to ask from someone who doesn't value honesty. I shall simply ignore your posts, but don't take it personally. I just don't like wasting my time with dishonest people.
     
  11. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    But there was no bombing, and Aristide came back peacefully. As for Obama and the Republican obstructionists,if people want to give progressive Presidents the ability to govern effectively, they need to vote out Republican legislators who obstruct said Presidents. They also need to realize that off-year congressional elections are important. Democrats knew how to win congressional elections before the nineties, and they did it again in 2008. Voters are too easily swayed by demagogues and the Koch brothers-backed Tea Party..I see no evidence that the people in this country want more socialism (as opposed to mixed economy), and if Democrats push it, they'll continue to lose elections. We'll be lucky to keep the social programs we have.
     
  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    I have no particular desire to carry on a dialogue with the previous poster, but if he or others post misleading stuff, I feel compelled to set the record straight. Contrary to the accusation, nothing in my posts was a lie. They were all in response to inaccurate statements leading to unnecessary cynicism about the U.S.--not that a substantial amount of cynicism is a bad thing--and to misguided action. There are plenty of anecdotes we could bring up about police lawlessness in this or that part of the country. Arizona is certainly ripe for that, as are Chicago and Ferguson, and Oklahoma. The police officers will say the wrong address was a mistake, the occupant shouldn't have resisted,etc. Then it becomes a matter for judges and juries. If we elect "law and order" (i.e., pro-police) judges and the citizenry drawn for jury duty give police the benefit of the doubt, the abuses will continue. To say that this is the norm, though, is an exaggeration. NSA claims that information gathered under its PRISM program can't be used on domestic targets without a warrant, that it's helped in preventing terrorism, and that it receives independent oversight from all three branches of our national government. Testimony is testimony, but the courts don't interpret it to include cell phone numbers. These distinctions may seem like technicalities, and I'm not defending them. But I think it's an illogical leap from that to "police state"--of which we have plenty of examples: Nazi Germany, Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, just about any country in the Middle East, etc. Measured against some ideal, our country falls far from the mark. But in relative terms, it stands up well in comparison with much of the competition, even in most western democracies.
     
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  13. hey wu, i believe they were following the "biden rule" when they chose to do that,
     
  14. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    Exactly, we merely have the illusion of democracy when it is patently obvious the money and guns are doing all the talking worth listening to. Obama did nothing when the billionaire mayor of NYC arrested 26 reporters in one day, he renewed the Patriot Act, and disenfranchised us all because democracy is just so many words in a country where one in five people insists the sun revolves around the earth and nobody can tell me the simple distinction between a lynch mob and a democracy.
     
  15. using innuendo like this what can be said about yr hero obama, you people are a fucking joke. effen snowflakes
     
  16. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    I have never called Obama a hero and have even rated him as a -1 for refusing to address the corruption in our government. You can now join the growing list of trolls at this website that I will ignore.
     
  17. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    And you people are the effen right wingers who gave us our current fuehrer. Too bad we all have to suffer for your mistake.
     
  18. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    They were invoking the so-called "Biden Rule" , which never existed as an actual rule and didn't apply to the context in which the Republicans invoked it. Biden floated the idea in a speech on June 25, 1992--more than three months later in the electoral cycle than McConnell raised it. There was no vcancy to fill on the Court and no actual nominee up for consideration. The Senate never took a vote on the so-called "rule". And Biden was not arguing for a delay until the next President began his term, only that they should wait until after the election.. So the effort to pin the blame on Biden is more Republican flimflam.
     
  19. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Yes, Obama didn't take care of lots of problems. People are still dying of cancer and suffering from the common cold, and pigeons are still dropping shit all over our fair cities. Why didn't he stop "the billionaire mayor of NYC" Bloomberg when arrested 26 reporters in one day"? Because Obama was never our King and in our federal system had no authority to do so. Bloomberg, as mayor of New York, set limits on where the media could be and the police arrested those who didn't comply. The mayor claimed that only five of the reporters had valid press credentials. Ordinarily, the remedy for false arrest is a lawsuit. If Obama called out the National Guard for that, people would be screaming about why somebody didn't arrest him for such an outrageous overstep of his authority.
     
  20. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Weak. And dishonest. You finally had a good discussion going :p But now it appears you don't like it when someone finally responds thoroughly and in depth. Just ignore someone then and cut this kind of bullshit 'explanations'. Pathetic.
     

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