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Torn Between Two Opposing Thoughts




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#11 autophobe2e

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Posted March 01 2017 - 12:02 PM

Hello friends,

As of late, more and more, I have found myself greatly torn between two views of people, and the world at large, and this also plays into my personal views on myself, and my emotions.

Ideally, I want us all to get along, to love each other, be peaceful, work towards a strong future as one species. To set aside all differences, and care for our fellow man and planet, to take full responsibility of being humans on this green world. Just as well on this coin, I seek to live my life peacefully, without anger, strife, grudges, hatred, to be kind to everyone, and live life to its fullest.

This is all just ideally, however.

More often than not, I find myself on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have no hope for our species or the planet, and that we all should die for what we've done to each other, and the world around us. That we're beyond repentance, and that everyday we just dig ourselves deeper, regression instead of progression. And in terms of my personal feelings and life, it fills me with anger and displeasure, makes me be spiteful towards my metaphorical fellow man, and even pushes me to not want to live amongst all this anymore, as I'm often so filled with resentment, anger, hatred, and sadness, directed towards so many things that seem almost beyond repair.

So my question to you all - how does one reconcile these seemingly paradoxical beliefs? The first is the ideal, the second is where I'm kinda stuck in. I'm curious to hear all your thoughts on these beliefs and issues at large, as I spend a lot of time agonizing and pontificating on this.

All thoughts and opinions welcome!

 

Both of these viewpoints are rooted in idealism. As in, the belief that humans have an essential nature that will always bubble to the surface, rather than idealism as in "hey everything can be rainbows". A more complete view would be to come at the problem from more of a materialistic perspective: humans have no innate essential nature, they are products of environment and circumstance.

 

This isn't to say that humans have no responsibility or are trapped in their boxes with no hope of change, it just means that humans aren't "good" or "Evil". recognition of this fact can lead you towards taking positive steps to make the world a better place.

 

in an "I hate people" mood?

 

recognize that the behavior you despise is the result of factors beyond that individuals control. You may have opposing viewpoints, but you are not opposed to each other by an unchangeable natural code in your DNA, you just live in different environments. Try to empathise, and think about what practical steps you could make to improve people's circumstances and environments.

 

In an "I love people " mood?

 

Recognise that those actions that people do that you love, although often the result of individual acts of will, are also the result of environment and circumstance. If you see a positive situation, think about the circumstances that created that action and think about how it can be spread out into the world, how it can build and be nourished by practical changes to environment.

 

 

Whether you think humans are great or evil, a belief in a concrete "nature" of humanity as a whole is reductive and paralyzing. A belief that humans are products of environment and have no essential nature can lead to social change and betterment.

 

the only downside to this way of thinking is that it can lead to a kind of moral relativism that can, in itself, be paralysing. but cross that bridge when you come to it, eh? ;)

 

If you ever feel down about your political ideals and the effectiveness of activism/possibilites of change, I reccomend the book "Hope in the dark" by Rebecca Solnit.


Edited by autophobe2e, March 01 2017 - 01:14 PM.

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#12 Ged

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Posted March 01 2017 - 03:12 PM

According to the philosopher and historian of ideas Michel Foucault,we all have a "fascism in our heads". Doesn't mean we are fascists per se. Internal dilemmas are very hard to live with. It's difficult to maintain an integral unified mind and World view,especially with so many outside forces trying to play on our sympathies. Learning to accept yourself is helpful,as well as taking charge of which channels you will allow into your system,your perceptual and super-sensible mind-system. Listen to your heart,and focus on the things you find truly nourish your soul..We also have a tendency to judge others harshly.So go easy on yourself and others.
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#13 Sora

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Posted March 01 2017 - 03:12 PM

'When fighting monsters, be careful you yourself do not become a monster' - Nietzsche.

 

Not that I think anyone here is doing that. But I think it's a useful kind of maxim when you feel like lining up a bunch of politicians and bankers against a wall and giving the order to fire, as I admit I sometimes do in my darker moments.

 

Anyway, to change tack slightly - I recently read a new book: 'How Soon is Now?' by Daniel Pinchbeck. In it he gives a nice analogy. When a caterpillar begins to be ready for metamorphosis, the cells in the body of the caterpillar start to break down inside the chrysalis, and this produces what are called 'imaginal cells'. These imaginal cells then reconstruct the dying caterpillar cells into the new butterfly.

So in this world fast going down the drain, those of us who care and have some awareness have to be the imaginal cells for the future of humanity. Seems like an awesome goal, but it rings a bell for me.

 

I think in the end that we just have to try to do whatever we can. Even in small ways.

 

Imaginal cells, huh?  Not something I'm familiar with, but honestly, such a thought fills me with hope, it is pretty awesome.  The kind, caring ones with awareness to what it is to be human and to care and love being the future as things get bleak.  This is really an outlook I can greatly appreciate.  It's incredibly comforting.

 

 

Both of these viewpoints are rooted in idealism. As in, the belief that humans have an essential nature that will always bubble to the surface, rather than idealism as in "hey everything can be rainbows". A more complete view would be to come at the problem from more of a materialistic perspective: humans have no innate essential nature, they are products of environment and circumstance.

 

This isn't to say that humans have no responsibility or are trapped in their boxes with no hope of change, it just means that humans aren't "good" or "Evil". recognition of this fact can lead you towards taking positive steps to make the world a better place.

 

in an "I hate people" mood?

 

recognize that the behavior you despise is the result of factors beyond that individuals control. You may have opposing viewpoints, but you are not opposed to each other by an unchangeable natural code in your DNA, you just live in different environments. Try to empathise, and think about what practical steps you could make to improve people's circumstances and environments.

 

In an "I love people " mood?

 

Recognise that those actions that people do that you love, although often the result of individual acts of will, are also the result of environment and circumstance. If you see a positive situation, think about the circumstances that created that action and think about how it can be spread out into the world, how it can build and be nourished by practical changes to environment.

 

 

Whether you think humans are great or evil, a belief in a concrete "nature" of humanity as a whole is reductive and paralyzing. A belief that humans are products of environment and have no essential nature can lead to social change and betterment.

 

the only downside to this way of thinking is that it can lead to a kind of moral relativism that can, in itself, be paralysing. but cross that bridge when you come to it, eh? ;)

 

If you ever feel down about your political ideals and the effectiveness of activism/possibilites of change, I reccomend the book "Hope in the dark" by Rebecca Solnit.

 

A very thought-provoking post.  I do indeed see this issue as binary almost, but as you very well point it, it truly is so much more than that, and you're entirely fully right.  I supposed I get so into this way of thought that I fail to consider the bigger picture, the more harmonious way of it.  Not an us vs. them thing, but rather that we're products of different environments, different beliefs, some good, some bad, but it's all a point of view, even though these points of view may be incredibly strong.  I've spent a long time feeling that human "nature" is a very concrete thing, but you do clearly demonstrate how reductive and paralyzing it is, and my very mental trap that I'm in with this does well to clearly exemplify your point.  I'm a pretty empathetic person, but I see that perhaps I need to think even bigger, in a broader scale, since I also tend to be pretty impulsive with my opinions, ready to make a call, and that's that.

 

Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll take a look at some point, that sounds like an excellent read, since I often do get down abut my beliefs and that possibilities of change.  The title alone sounds wonderful.

 

 

 

According to the philosopher and historian of ideas Michel Foucault,we all have a "fascism in our heads". Doesn't mean we are fascists per se. Internal dilemmas are very hard to live with. It's difficult to maintain an integral unified mind and World view,especially with so many outside forces trying to play on our sympathies. Learning to accept yourself is helpful,as well as taking charge of which channels you will allow into your system,your perceptual and super-sensible mind-system. Listen to your heart,and focus on the things you find truly nourish your soul..We also have a tendency to judge others harshly.So go easy on yourself and others. 

 

Another very worthwhile thought.  I like the term, "fascism in our heads", because I get what's being said there, it's a powerful turn of phrase.  I suppose I tend to just get so caught up in the noise and traffic of all of the issues that surround us, fail to look inward and remember myself, and get swept up in it.  Next think I know, I fail to pay attention to what indeed nourishes my soul, and tend to judge harshly, far far more than I should.  Thank you so much for your thoughts.


Edited by Sora, March 01 2017 - 03:16 PM.


#14 themnax

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Posted March 03 2017 - 04:35 PM

should is not in the univeres's vocabulary.  tyrannies rise and fall.  any man can be killed or intimidated. 

the universe can not.  it will go on working just exactly the diversely patterned way that it does, no matter what,

 

though we can and are fucking up our own planet, largely through ignorance and indifference.  that is the eco-pocalypse. 

it will have a morning after, that may or may not include something resembling the human species.

 

we do have several options we can choose however, and one of them, is to be considerate of all things.  it won't even take all of us doing so.

something may inherit the earth.  it may even be smarter then we currently are.


Edited by themnax, March 03 2017 - 04:36 PM.

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#15 Sora

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Posted March 08 2017 - 01:45 PM

should is not in the univeres's vocabulary.  tyrannies rise and fall.  any man can be killed or intimidated. 

the universe can not.  it will go on working just exactly the diversely patterned way that it does, no matter what,

 

though we can and are fucking up our own planet, largely through ignorance and indifference.  that is the eco-pocalypse. 

it will have a morning after, that may or may not include something resembling the human species.

 

we do have several options we can choose however, and one of them, is to be considerate of all things.  it won't even take all of us doing so.

something may inherit the earth.  it may even be smarter then we currently are.

I can't deny that.  The universe has its own way, whatever way that is, it cares little for what should be, it just does it, and we have don't have too many choices in the matter, you are right, there will indeed be a morning after, and perhaps that morning is a better morning than any that came before it



#16 MeAgain

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Posted March 09 2017 - 09:39 PM

The time will come when you see we're all one,

 

And life flows on within you and without you.

 

George Harrison

 

So don't worry about it.


 

"Oh, how sweet it is to hear one's own convictions from another's lips"

~ Goethe

 

 


#17 Ajay0

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Posted March 14 2017 - 06:16 AM

Hello friends,

As of late, more and more, I have found myself greatly torn between two views of people, and the world at large, and this also plays into my personal views on myself, and my emotions.

Ideally, I want us all to get along, to love each other, be peaceful, work towards a strong future as one species. To set aside all differences, and care for our fellow man and planet, to take full responsibility of being humans on this green world. Just as well on this coin, I seek to live my life peacefully, without anger, strife, grudges, hatred, to be kind to everyone, and live life to its fullest.

This is all just ideally, however.

More often than not, I find myself on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have no hope for our species or the planet, and that we all should die for what we've done to each other, and the world around us. That we're beyond repentance, and that everyday we just dig ourselves deeper, regression instead of progression. And in terms of my personal feelings and life, it fills me with anger and displeasure, makes me be spiteful towards my metaphorical fellow man, and even pushes me to not want to live amongst all this anymore, as I'm often so filled with resentment, anger, hatred, and sadness, directed towards so many things that seem almost beyond repair.

So my question to you all - how does one reconcile these seemingly paradoxical beliefs? The first is the ideal, the second is where I'm kinda stuck in. I'm curious to hear all your thoughts on these beliefs and issues at large, as I spend a lot of time agonizing and pontificating on this.

All thoughts and opinions welcome!

 

 

 The way I see it, you have an image of  good or an idealistic world and desire greatly to materialise it. But your understanding of the facts makes you skeptical and pessimistic of the future. This conflict between ideals and reality is embittering your mind and making it negative and depressed. 
 
Here, it is your desire to materialise your ideals that is the issue, and its frustration is what is the cause of your negativity. And as a result of your negativity, you might even fail or procrastinate in your duties to the environment or humanity or the world, which can result in greater regression as well. 
 
So don't follow your desires and become emotionally involved with it. Just pursue it as a duty as taught by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita., without desiring for the results and focus on doing the best job you can do under the circumstances. This can create enthusiasm and positivity instead of demoralisation and negativity. 
 
  Desire, whether to create inordinate wealth by cutting trees or killing endangered tigers for expensive tigerskins, or for the realization of ideals due to the greed of doing good, are all of the same category as it pulls man away from his natural state of thoughtless awareness or love, imho. 
 
As Eckhart Tolle puts it, "Are you polluting the world or cleaning up the mess? You are responsible for your inner space; nobody else is, just as you are responsible for the planet. As within, so without: If humans clear inner pollution, then they will also cease to create outer pollution."

Edited by Ajay0, March 14 2017 - 06:19 AM.

When the robot mind is mastered, undisciplined thinking ceases and is replaced by awareness. Awareness can know love. You can only experience the new when you are aware, when you are without thought. -- Barry Long
 
Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle





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