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#11 BlackBillBlake

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Posted February 24 2017 - 04:10 AM

"Free is when you don't have to pay for nothing or do nothing" - Frank Zappa.

 

Frank had a point there from one perspective.

 

Anyway, as regards spiritual freedom: The spirit is actually always free. Bondage is a result of our not having the knowledge of spirit. Most of the time we're caught up in a web of mental and emotional reactions and constructs. To realize freedom is to transcend our normal awareness which is conditioned and by it's very nature partial.

 

So my brief answer would be that freedom is equivalent to spiritual gnosis. Other forms of 'freedom', political, financial, social etc are only partial freedoms.



#12 Asmo

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Posted February 24 2017 - 05:52 AM

Not looking to take anything away from anyone if that's what you're implying. If it brings them a certain level of peace to believe they're free regardless of their captivity, then that's fine with me.

 

 

 

What is spiritual freedom? Freedom from spirituality? I can see that as even spirituality can be a sort of confinement. Like a vehicle it could only take you so far.  

 

How free one is spiritually is not primarily measured in how far this spirituality in all its freedom can take you. It is how free you spiritually are and feel. It doesn't have to take you to any higher level or something. That's a different aspect of spirituality as it seems to me.

 

Do you experience your constrainment to your body as a lack of freedom? I don't (as I'm not really convinced what the spirit is or can do without a body. If that would indeed be nothing we should value our time in it a lot more :P And also see it as the only and ultimate freedom we have while actually having and being aware of our spirit or just ourselves). Maybe it's a matter of perspective. Imagine a paralyzed person. 


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#13 Pure Darkness

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:26 PM

How free one is spiritually is not primarily measured in how far this spirituality in all its freedom can take you. It is how free you spiritually are and feel. It doesn't have to take you to any higher level or something. That's a different aspect of spirituality as it seems to me.

 

 

Yes a different aspect of spirituality. It seems you are talking about the feeling of spirituality as freeing. Where as i am talking about breaking free from that spiritual identity. Is this correct?

 

 

Do you experience your constrainment to your body as a lack of freedom? 

 

Nooo, to me the body is a gift. And i make the most out of using this beautiful gift. 


It cannot be seen. Cannot be felt.

Cannot be heard. Cannot be smelt.

It lies behind stars and under hills.

And empty holes it fills.

It comes first and follows after.

Ends life. Kills laughter. 

 

 


#14 TopNotchStoner

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:42 PM

I don't believe in spirituality. I don't believe spirits or souls or any of that bullshit.

The "spirit" or "soul" is supposedly what makes up our personality(our emotions, our empathy, our likes and dislikes, our loyalty, our sexual preference, etc.). From a logical standpoint, we KNOW that the "spirit", or "soul", basically amounts to nothing more than chemical reactions and electrical synapses in our brain and nervous system. When a person's brain activity ceases, everything that makes that person who they are, as an individual, completely ceases to exist.

In terms of an afterlife, the only afterlife I can imagine is the recycling of energy.

​I say, again...........freedom doesn't exist, spiritually or otherwise. Only the illusion of freedom exists.



Edited by TopNotchStoner, February 24 2017 - 02:43 PM.

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I Can Only Build If I Tear The Walls Down
Even If It Breaks Me, I Won't Let It Make Me Frown
I'm Falling, But No Matter How Hard I Hit The Ground.......I'll Still Smile
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(RIP cosmoknot, rangerdanger, and Geneity)


#15 themnax

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:45 PM

"freedom's only privileged extended, unless enjoyed by one and all"

i do not believe any human alive knows the will of any god.

freedom is what each person robs from every other person when they choose to be inconsiderate of them and of all other things.

governments are not freedom.  ideologies are not freedom. 

and the ideological excuses made for aggressiveness, are tyranny by any other name.

 

democracy is not freedom.  that is correct.  but it is an opportunity, to hold hierarchies accountable.

this is almost a separate issue.  as separate as anything ever is.  which might not ever be entirely.

 

freedom is a good thing, but not one well or often understood.

 

once every possible result has been taken into consideration,

no further license need be required, to behave in any way which violates none.

 

that is freedom.  any freedom which does not violate, rob, impinge upon, however you want to say it, the freedom of any self aware living thing else.

and self aware living thing includes nearly, if not all, mammals, reptiles, birds and fish.

 

it is only because of the unwillingness and/or inability of some individuals,

to take into consideration, the lives, well being, and freedom of others,

that regulation along with some means of enforcing it, becomes required.

 

thus consideration is the friend of freedom,

while the lack of it, is the friend of tyranny.


my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

=^^=
.../\...


#16 Pure Darkness

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:47 PM

I don't believe in spirituality. I don't believe spirits or souls or any of that bullshit.

The "spirit" or "soul" is supposedly what makes up our personality(our emotions, our empathy, our likes and dislikes, our loyalty, our sexual preference, etc.). From a logical standpoint, we KNOW that the "spirit", or "soul", basically amounts to nothing more than chemical reactions and electrical synapses in our brain and nervous system. When a person's brain activity ceases, everything that makes that person who they are, as an individual, completely ceases to exist.

In terms of an afterlife, the only afterlife I can imagine is the recycling of energy.

​I say, again...........freedom doesn't exist, spiritually or otherwise. Only the illusion of freedom exists.


 

I can see your point. I'm quite similar as i often use terms like spirituality, spirits, and souls very loosely.  Sometimes using these labels can help drive my point across. Or sometimes i just like playing around with different points of views. 


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It cannot be seen. Cannot be felt.

Cannot be heard. Cannot be smelt.

It lies behind stars and under hills.

And empty holes it fills.

It comes first and follows after.

Ends life. Kills laughter. 

 

 


#17 themnax

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:51 PM

People claim to be free but what exactly are they free from? 

presumably the tyranny of hierarchy.

which yes, productive social agreements are capable of being crafted without formality of hierarchy.

but it does take the self discipline of consideration to do so.

a universally, or near universally, mutual, consideration at that.

too often the excuse is made that this is beyond human capacity.

i personally call bullshit on the claim that it is.

rather people have deliberately seduced each other away from it,

it pursuit of illusory personal 'gain'.


my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

=^^=
.../\...


#18 TopNotchStoner

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:55 PM

I can see your point. I'm quite similar as i often use terms like spirituality, spirits, and souls very loosely.  Sometimes using these labels can help drive my point across. Or sometimes i just like playing around with different points of views. 

Yeah, sometimes you have to use those terms, because most people(even many atheists) simply can't fathom the idea of NOT existing after death.


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I Can Only Build If I Tear The Walls Down
Even If It Breaks Me, I Won't Let It Make Me Frown
I'm Falling, But No Matter How Hard I Hit The Ground.......I'll Still Smile
~Micheal "Eyedea" Larsen~



(RIP cosmoknot, rangerdanger, and Geneity)


#19 themnax

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Posted February 24 2017 - 02:59 PM

I don't believe in spirituality. I don't believe spirits or souls or any of that bullshit.

The "spirit" or "soul" is supposedly what makes up our personality(our emotions, our empathy, our likes and dislikes, our loyalty, our sexual preference, etc.). From a logical standpoint, we KNOW that the "spirit", or "soul", basically amounts to nothing more than chemical reactions and electrical synapses in our brain and nervous system. When a person's brain activity ceases, everything that makes that person who they are, as an individual, completely ceases to exist.

In terms of an afterlife, the only afterlife I can imagine is the recycling of energy.

​I say, again...........freedom doesn't exist, spiritually or otherwise. Only the illusion of freedom exists.


what i do believe, is that there is more to everything then what we see when we look at it.

there is nothing to stop this from including completely non-physical things.

 

i agree we do great harm by basing our lives upon baseless, shared assumptions about them, to ourselves and everyone else.

that doesn't mean we have to throw out with the bath water the possibility of their existence,

nor even their potential for friendship.

 

but it does mean, whatever such things might exist, owe nothing to what any one or any belief, claims to know about them.

 

consideration remains morality regardless of what unseen things might or might not exist.

why, because it is in everyone's own personal, as well as mutual interest.

why, because the degree or lack of it, creates the quality of the conditions we experience of living in this, or any world.

 

the universal wonder of strangeness, is something we all can, and most do, experience, regardless of what any of us do or do not believe.

i totally agree though, that there is no good thing that wishes to be feared,

nor is anything bad or wrong, simply for refusing to endorse or support, any and all hierarchy.

 

but the only way for regulation to not fill the void created by lack of the self dicipline to be considerate of all things,

is to poses and encourage everyone to practice it, to the greatest degree it is within our capacity, which is considerable, to do so.


Edited by themnax, February 24 2017 - 03:04 PM.

my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

=^^=
.../\...


#20 TopNotchStoner

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Posted February 24 2017 - 03:05 PM

what i do believe, is that there is more to everything then what we see when we look at it.

there is nothing to stop this from including completely non-physical things.

 

i agree we do great harm by basing our lives upon baseless, shared assumptions about them, to ourselves and everyone else.

that doesn't mean we have to throw out with the bath water the possibility of their existence,

nor even their potential for friendship.

 

but it does mean, whatever such things might exist, owe nothing to what any one or any belief, claims to know about them.

 

consideration remains morality regardless of what unseen things might or might not exist.

why, because it is in everyone's own personal, as well as mutual interest.

why, because the degree or lack of it, creates the quality of the conditions we experience of living in this, or any world.

This is what I believe. This is what makes ME feel connected. This is what I show atheists who want to feel connected to something bigger than themselves:


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I Can Only Build If I Tear The Walls Down
Even If It Breaks Me, I Won't Let It Make Me Frown
I'm Falling, But No Matter How Hard I Hit The Ground.......I'll Still Smile
~Micheal "Eyedea" Larsen~



(RIP cosmoknot, rangerdanger, and Geneity)





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