Will Trump Supporters Listen To The Warnings?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So what we need to consider in these last few posts is whether they contribute to the OP, "Will Trump Supporters Listen to the Warnings?"

    Without dissecting every recent post let me just point out that statements have been made that are based on questionable facts. And I'm not going to look them up right now.

    Without going back and reviewing every post, I'll just relate to the latest argument in regards to the CAR example of Christians burning witches.
    Psymon asked for a 2015 example of a nation in which Christian militias have recently burned "witches" and examples of Christian nations that persecute homosexuals.

    I supplied the Reuters report. Reuters is a respected news service.
    6eyed then attempted to change the argument by stating that the attacks were carried out by Christian militias and not officially sanctioned by the government. But that wasn't the question, the question was what is the source for the report that Christian Militias in the CAR were committing these atrocities.
    I provided that source.
    6eye attempted to change the question from where is the report about the militias to where is a there a report about sanctioned atrocities by Christian governments.

    Now I'm not going to say 6eye is a Trump supporter because I don't know if he is...but this is a typical tactic of Trump supporters, and I relate all this back to the OP.

    Second, the link 6eye provided to support his claim that the militia attacks were not sanctioned by the government seems to contradict his claim:
    This is also a tactic used by Trump supporters, in my opinion. When confronted with evidence, declare the evidence states the opposite.

    Then 6eye asks where is the evidence of homosexuals being attacked in CAR? That wasn't the question in regards to CAR, that was a separate question. See below.
    psymon asked in a seperate question, in what Christian countries are homosexuals are being persecuted?
    Dice provided a list and a source but 6eye counters that the countries aren't big enough and some of the laws aren't enforced. The size of the country is irrelevant to the question.
    Here's the list, and notice that some of the primary laws are enforced, such as Saint Vincent. also notice the amount of enforced laws against same sex marriage etc.

    So many examples are given but they are disregarded.

    Again, this just shows how many people can and will disregard facts if they don't comport with their world view...not to cite 6eye explicitly as a person, I am commenting on his views which is not an ad hominem attack.
    I am not saying 6eye is a Trump supporter, but I am using these examples to illustrate that many people such as Trump supporters will not readily change their views and that is why these latest posts are relevant to the OP.
     
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  2. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history

    This was pretty interesting - it traces the legal standing of homosexuality back centuries

    Wstern countries have went back and forth regarding its legal status with many countries decriminalizing and later recriminalizing homosexual acts.

    The Ottoman empire decriminalized.in...I want to say the 1860s, I'll have to double check as I'm going from memory from what I just read. I thought that was pretty interesting

    Cultural attitudes shift, maybe we will see another cultural shift in the middle east within our lifetime

    I imagine this is yet another reason why people living in Muslim majority countries wish to emigrate to western countries
     
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  3. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Oh, kind of like righties when Trump is mentioned and anything wrong he is doing.....conversation gets deflected back to either Obama this and that or Hillary this and that. Deflection is a popular method used by many people, instead of addressing whatever issue it is at hand.
    I am not a leftie that does what you said....as I pretty much stay out of religion talk anyway. I don't defend any of it....
    live and let live , as long as you are not pushing your religion on me, is how I feel.
     
  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    There is such a thing as christiananimism.

    As to my paraphrasing:
    Balbus said:
    psymon asked for links:
    Links were provided, paraphrasing or not.
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Well it depends on how you define persecution.
    If you define it as "to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religious or political beliefs, ethnic or racial origin, gender identity, or sexual orientation", ~ 1 then certainly examples can be found on the list I provided as many "Christian" countries don't treat homosexuals as equal members of their society.

    In many places they are denied same sex marriages, adoption is denied to same sex couples, military service is denied, gender change is prohibited, and same sex intercourse is illegal. Some have constitutional bans, some have laws on the books, some have laws they enforce against homosexuals with varying penalties such as imprisonment and fines.

    If you don't call that abuse or harassment and if you confine the definition to killing people because they are homosexual, then I guess you would be right.


    Finally, when did I ever blame Christian countries for attacks that Muslims commit?
    Where did you get that?
     
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  6. psymon*

    psymon* shadilay

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    Curious, what does this have to do with trump supporters listening to the warnings?

    It has been established that Muslims are attacking homosexuals in Africa (CAR) and the Middle East, as well as Muslims attacking and persecuting witches, Christians, and homosexuals. To rub salt in the wounds they are doing this in countries that are classified as Christian countries. Muslims behaving in the most unchristian way!

    Central Republic of Africa, in 2011, under a Christian president Francois Bozize, he signed a declaration with the UN regarding homosexuality. It is not a crime to be LGBT in CAR. There are a lot of IIslamic people in The Central African Republic who have blamed homosexuality on the influence of the west in the Central African Republic.

    How are Trump supporters suppose to interpret these warnings? How are Americans whoaredemocratssuppose to interpret this? I hear warning bells and I am heeding the warnings
    !
     
  7. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Re persecution of gays in Africa:
    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/lgbti-lgbt-gay-human-rights-law-africa-uganda-kenya-nigeria-cameroon
    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/22101-us-christian-right-behind-anti-gay-law-passed-in-uganda
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/11/AR2010121101527.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014
    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/africa-horrifying-persecution-gays-article-1.1620319
    http://www.dw.com/en/anti-gay-sentiment-on-the-rise-in-africa/a-19338620
    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/moving-walls/18/persecution-homosexuality-uganda
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323-story.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/africa-homophobia-uganda-anti-gay-law

    RE persecution of witches in Africa:
    https://www.thoughtco.com/persecuting-witches-and-witchcraft-4123033
    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/05/opinion/the-persecution-of-witches-21st-century-style.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/05/world/africa/tanzania-witchcraft/index.html
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_afri.htm
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/ghanas-witch-camps-last-refuge-of-the-powerless-and-the-persecuted-8081391.html
    http://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/191396-nigerian-churches-others-causing-increased-witchcraft-persecution-in-uk-group.html
    http://www.newsweek.com/aftricas-modern-day-witch-hunt-67309

    Seems that Balbus and Meagain are right, as anyone familiar with modern sub-Saharan Africa would know. This is happening in Christian-majority countries, and those laws are being enforced.
     
  8. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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  9. psymon*

    psymon* shadilay

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    Okiefreak, I clicked your first link and the first thing I see is Nigeria, Northern states, 9 of them which are Muslim states which enact and practice Sharia law. This is not a Christian state! Nor is sharia law a part of the Christian belief system! And the president is Muslim.

    Second link, Uganda. It is Not illegal to be gay or have gay sex in Uganda, like your link states! This was addressed pages ago. Your link is dated.

    Not to mention that several of your links in the witch hunt section are in reference to Muslims carrying out witch hunts. I can't be bothered going through them all and check your facts since you did not bother to read back or check on your own references.

    3rd link, Uganda again! Dated! Previously addressed!

    The key is Christian countries, and are these Christian areas or Christians that these punishments carried out by?
    Are these acts crimes or accepted in the laws?

    You are not helping okie, you are providing links that are not related to The acts carried out by Christians, and/or Christian areas.

    Your witch hunt links are not accurate either and are misleading. This was also previously addressed. For example. Tanzania. Witch doctors exist. They are Animists committing thiese acts, not Christians! The people arrested for killing albino people in Tanzania were animists/witch doctors as well as Muslims. This is a crime in Tanzania and people were arrested!

    This thread is about Trump supporters listening to the warnings.

    What is suppose to be taken from this? That we should be thankful to live in the western world and not be subject to Sharia law and Animists?
     
  10. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Psymon, what we can see in the links in Okies post is that both muslims and christians still oppress homosexuals and witches in those areas. Just because some of those areas have a muslim majority doesn't change that. You seem to want to downplay the fact (which it is) that christians do that as well, sometimes even with support from christians in the west.

    Why are we still talking about this in this thread you ask? Because several people keep hammering on this issue as if it is a valuable argument to keep muslims out of the USA (which relates directly to Trump's dubious policies).
     
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  11. psymon*

    psymon* shadilay

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    Ah, at last, someone here is actually willing to admit that muslims oppress homosexuals.

    I think the point others have tried to make is that while Christianity has an unfavorable view on homosexuality, Islam is even further behind on the times. Those countries where these atrocities are taking place are not Christian run. Even you admit they have a muslim majority. Every map of the world that shows gay rights by country, gays are more liberated in the western and predominantly christian nations. Even catholic latin america is easing up on homosexuality laws.

    I'd like to see a gay couple and a journalist actually confront a muslim-run catering business to pressure them to cater a gay wedding the same way they've done to Christian wedding photographers and cake makers, and run nation wide smear campaigns on them when they refuse to provide services. Why do I get the feeling the establishment media would not allow that?
     
  12. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Nobody was denying that but ok. Both christians and muslims do that. Both in developed and 3rd world countries, in the west, Russia and yes also all over Africa and the middle east.


    Doesn't change the fact christians are doing it as well. And that a general ban on people from certain countries based on their religious affiliation is not useful and against most western constitutions (for good reasons)

    But not in the first place because of said christians and the church. They loosened up because of the growing number (and influence) of the a-religious people in the secular societies these christians are part of. Especially in the more protestant countries it was either growing tolerance and acceptance or empty churches and smaller church communities. Which happened either way because this is just how it will go in developed nations with educated people. Although there is enough evidence there are some really backwards and closeminded christians in the west as well. I would say in America so many it is still part of american cultural identity. But no, a moderate muslim from lets say Syria should be regarded as worse by default :p Absurd of course.
     
  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    You clicked my first link? If you did, you'd have seen other countries besides Nigeria. There's even a map! And there were--what? Six other links, full of additional examples of Christian majority African countries with repressive laws and/or violence against gays: Uganda, notorious for its death penalty law--85% Christian; CAR, 80% Christian, Cameroon, 70% Christian; etc. What is supposed to be taken from this? You and others were asking Balbus to provide the links, indicating skepticism that there were Christian countries in the world in which gays were being persecuted. I provided some. Taken in totality, I think they prove the point. Picking at this or that detail won't explain them away to anyone who reads them. As for the thread being about Trump supporters listening to the warnings, yes it is. The part about gays came up in the context of Muslim bashing by Trump supporters in the form of arguing that Muslims were hostile to gays. When Meagain and Balbus mentioned that so were some Christian African countries, you, Six-eyed and others demanded links. When I provided some, you try to explain them away. All very Trumpian, illustrating that Trump supporters not only won't listen but won't read either. I think Asmo's point about the liberalization of attitudes toward gays in western democracies is spot on. It has to do with secularization, not Christianity. As an inhabitant of the Bible Belt, I can affirm that the climate toward gays is hostile, manifested in hostility toward gay marriage, gay adoptions, child custody proceedings, legal discrimination against gays in employment and housing, etc., and support for the right of private individuals to discriminate against gays in business activities. Thirteen states, including mine, still have anti-sodomy laws on the books, the better to harass gays. This hostility is rooted in fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible. It took a 2003 Supreme Court decision to prohibit criminal prosecution of private consensual same-sex acts. Idaho had life imprisonment for sodomy, Michigan had a possible sentence of 15 years, and in my state a guy served time for sodomy in the privacy of his home with his own wife! (Yes, a woman).
     
  14. psymon*

    psymon* shadilay

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    Fixing this.
     
  15. psymon*

    psymon* shadilay

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    ^ okie, yes I clicked your links. 1st one dealt with Kenya, Nigeria and uganda. The following 2 Uganda.

    I do not deny that there are countries classified as Christian have hatred towards gay people, but to put the blame solely at the feet of Christians and Trump supporters in the USA can not be further from the truth. The ptroblem is that the left denies athe problem and hatred from the Muslim community within, which s a big problem. Uganda has made changes to their laws and are working towards improving rights if the lgbt community and Muslims have taken the law into their own hands which results in the perpetrators being convicted of crimes.

    In the USA there were approx 1600 gay hate crimes. Most of these involved trans women, many were also prostitutes. You talk as if trump and trump supporters and Christian people approved of this and applaud discrimination, which could not be further from the truth. The left myth of tolerance is exactly that, a myth. They are tolerant of intolerance from some people because they are a minority.

    The problem is also that meagain, Balbus and now you blame Christian in these countries of acts committed by people iof other faiths with in these countries as well.

    Yes I agree that there are close minded people everywhere but must disagree with regards to Syria being worse. Beheading for being Christian, raped, tortured for loving someone, witch hunts, and this s all legal by laws and by religious ideology in Syria. By Muslim belief.

    How about we address another problem. The Netherlands is viewed as tolerant and progressive. But is it really? What happens when you bring in people who disagree with that tolerance and kill a film director? Do not agree with freedom of Speech? What happens when you have a government who for years has accepted intolerance and in being tolerant Hve brought about intolerance by ignoring a growing problem? The Netherlands also has problems.

    In the last 6 years reported gay hate crimes have increased by 35 percent in the Netherlands. Gay people are afraid to hold hands in public because of Islamic hatred towards gay people.

    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/04/coc-calls-for-action-against-rising-tide-of-homophobic-attacks/

    The left claims to be tolerant , the Dutch tolerance is a myth. It views tolerance from a pluralistic view, everybody thinks like me. ignoring the intolerance of the newcomer from Islamic countries. The intolerance for freedom of speech. As a result this allows for intolerance to grow with the acceptance or the ignoring of intolerance. People havebecome tired of being tolerant of intolerant newcomers from Islamic countries. Tired of the problem not being addressed for fear of offending their beliefs, thus ignoring a problem and increasing the growing intolerance for the intolerance.
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So, will Trump supporter's listen to the warnings?

    No.

    Here's why, and I'm going to paraphrase so get ready.
    If we look at his particular part of this thread, and correct any points I get wrong, I'm doing this from memory:

    Someone brought up Trump's ban on traveling from certain Muslim countries.
    It was pointed out that it was unfair for a number of reasons.
    Then it was claimed that Islam is an inherently "bad" religion. They persecute people.
    So someone pointed out that Islam is not the only religion that persecutes people.

    "Oh yeah? Name one Christian country that persecutes people!"
    So several were named....with links.

    Well, turns out the countries weren't big enough, or the persecution wasn't bad enough, or the definition of persecution was wrong.
    Even though sources were supplied that prove that persecution does in fact occur in Christian run countries especially persecution of gays, the evidence is not enough to change opinions.

    But the evidence is there.
    So what happens? The original claim is redefined.

    The original claim was that no Christian nations persecute people, only Muslim nations do that, and that proves that Islam is a "bad" religion.
    Remember quotes from the Koran were used as evidence, I believe.
    A counter argument could have been raised based on the fact that there are many "bad" quotes that could also be found in the Christian Bible, but no one went there.
    Instead, the original claim was that no Christian nations persecute people was refuted by offering proof that it was wrong.

    So now the argument is redefined to claim that the ones who opposed that argument were arguing that no Muslim nations persecuted people, only Christian nations do that.
    No one that I can think of ever claimed that, but it is presented as part of the argument.
    What this is an attempt to distract attention away from the original indefensible argument and place the opponent in a position where he has to defend something he never claimed.

    This is a typical type of reaction by Trump supporters and one reason they will not listen to the warnings.
    If their argument is refuted by fact, well they can always just redefine it to avoid admitting the truth.
     
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  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The persecution of homosexuals is not primarily religion based in any country, it's culturally based.

    Any culture that is defined by Christianity or Islam can find excuses in their holy book to persecute homosexuals if they wish.
    Most Christian nations are more culturally advanced than most Muslim nations and have moved on past the baser aspects of their religion.

    Morally advance Muslims do not persecute homosexuals any more than morally advanced Christians.
     
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  18. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    As Meagain pointed out, nobody "put the blame solely at the feet of Christians and Trump supporters..." This is a straw man argument.
     
  19. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Sounds like the Dutch tolerance is not a myth but is maybe too much of a reality. I agree there are enormous problems raised when a western pluralistic democracy opens its borders to vast numbers of immigrants from authoritarian cultures. To deny or minimize the problems is naive. On the other hand, there is the humanitarian crisis of major proportions to deal with as a result of the refugees from war torn countries. Yhere is also the political problem of dealing effectively with the threat of international terrorism which, at the moment, is primarily posed by the Islamic radicals of ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Taliban. The problem of terrorism is complex and calls for a nuanced approach from skilled international strategists. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be what we have, at least not in the United States. We have a President who appears to be mainly interested in playing domestic politics with the issue. His initial travel ban against seven countries was hastily cobbled together from a list prepared much earlier for a different purpose and under different circumstances by President Obama. No reasonable expert thinks the ban would have made the United States significantly safer, and it would have served as a jihadist recruiting device by appearing to be motivated by anti-Muslim animus. Exceptions of countries like Saudi Arabia, currently the object of Trump's entanglements, is questionable. I think the modified travel ban has a good chance of being upheld as constitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court, but it still seems unwise and counterproductive. The important thing is to maintain and improve tough vetting of immigrants from troubled parts of the world, wherever they are.
     
  20. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Politics is always downstream from Culture.

    You cannot change the laws and politics of a society or nation too easily without changing the culture first.

    With that said, how do you think we can change the culture of Islam to be more accepting of homosexuals and more lenient of women's rights? And not try to murder their neighbor's dogs?

    If you bring several million actual and fake refugees over to western nations, do you actually believe they are going to abandon their customs and values they have been brought up with? If yes, please explain your reasoning.

    A lot of these people come from a place where a woman walking unaccompanied by a man, is seen as a whore who is breaking the law. And you've seen the maps on homosexual rights in those countries too. Do these people magically become new people as soon as they come to Europe or Canada?

    One religion's prophet is a carpenter who teaches to love thy enemy.
    The other religion's prophet is a war lord who teaches to conquer thy enemy.
     

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