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The Origination Of Self




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#1 Perfection of Disorder

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Posted November 07 2016 - 07:38 PM

From whence did it come? Has it always existed? Is it a constant of duality?
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#2 MeAgain

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Posted November 08 2016 - 10:39 AM

In Buddhism the self is composed of five aggregates:

 

Form, perception, sensations, consciousness, and mental formation.


Edited by MeAgain, November 08 2016 - 02:20 PM.
Corrected the five aggregates.

 

"Acclinis Falsis Animus Meliora Recusat"

(A mind that is charmed by false appearances refuses better things.)

~ Horace

 

 


#3 Perfection of Disorder

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Posted November 08 2016 - 10:44 AM

In Buddhism the self is composed of five aggregates:

Form, sensations, perception, consciousness, and mental formation.

Form being the exterior formation thereof, I assume, due to mental formation finding separation in this list. Is that correct?


Edited by MeAgain, November 08 2016 - 02:20 PM.
Corrected my quote.

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#4 Wu Li Heron

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Posted November 08 2016 - 11:14 AM

Buddhists like to talk about the world of differentiation where we distinguish between this, that, and the other thing including our own view of ourselves and the world around us as separate and distinct. Personally, I see it as simply the fact that a context without any content is both mentally and physically impossible. Our unconscious mind will search for what's missing from this picture by merely comparing different patterns without requiring our neurons have any clue what they are looking at, while our conscious mind attempts to fill in the picture with meaningful content including our self-image. The less the two agree upon the more pronounced our ego can become and Groucho Marx is a classic example in comedy of a raging ego maniac who views himself as greater than anything else in existence, but that comes at the expense of being able to readily detect what's missing from this picture which is exactly why it makes for great comedy.

 

When we no longer make distinctions between who we are and what we are doing we value our ignorance as much as any knowledge, thus, becoming poetry in motion where who we perceive ourselves as becomes less important than merely being and becoming who we really are. Or, as Lao Tzu humorously put it, "Habits are the end of honesty and compassion, the beginning of total confusion!" Frank Zappa said something similar, "You are what you is and dat's all it tis!"


Edited by Wu Li Heron, November 08 2016 - 11:23 AM.

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#5 MeAgain

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Posted November 08 2016 - 01:32 PM

Form being the exterior formation thereof, I assume, due to mental formation finding separation in this list. Is that correct?

One thing leads to another and nowhere does it begin.


 

"Acclinis Falsis Animus Meliora Recusat"

(A mind that is charmed by false appearances refuses better things.)

~ Horace

 

 


#6 Perfection of Disorder

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Posted November 08 2016 - 01:36 PM

One thing leads to another and nowhere does it begin.

I would say it sprang from the first division into existence and non-existence.
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#7 Perfection of Disorder

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Posted November 08 2016 - 01:55 PM

Buddhists like to talk about the world of differentiation where we distinguish between this, that, and the other thing including our own view of ourselves and the world around us as separate and distinct. Personally, I see it as simply the fact that a context without any content is both mentally and physically impossible. Our unconscious mind will search for what's missing from this picture by merely comparing different patterns without requiring our neurons have any clue what they are looking at, while our conscious mind attempts to fill in the picture with meaningful content including our self-image. The less the two agree upon the more pronounced our ego can become and Groucho Marx is a classic example in comedy of a raging ego maniac who views himself as greater than anything else in existence, but that comes at the expense of being able to readily detect what's missing from this picture which is exactly why it makes for great comedy.

When we no longer make distinctions between who we are and what we are doing we value our ignorance as much as any knowledge, thus, becoming poetry in motion where who we perceive ourselves as becomes less important than merely being and becoming who we really are. Or, as Lao Tzu humorously put it, "Habits are the end of honesty and compassion, the beginning of total confusion!" Frank Zappa said something similar, "You are what you is and dat's all it tis!"

I would posit that our seeking to always discern the missing in reality is due to our decision to seek order in the midst of chaos. We are part of the balance that the universe seeks to maintain
DISCLAIMER......Please hold on......my understanding is my own and yours is yours. We have already agreed to disagree and disagreed to agree. Your personal ideology is no more good or bad than mine, etc.......... Love,Hate,War & Peace.........END DISCLAIMER

#8 Wu Li Heron

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Posted November 08 2016 - 02:06 PM

I would posit that our seeking to always discern the missing in reality is due to our decision to seek order in the midst of chaos. We are part of the balance that the universe seeks to maintain

 

Balance is meaningless without harmony which neither acts nor reasons. What the universe seeks is the lowest possible energy state of the complete system. 

 

Hippies like to say "Whenever harmony is lost, balance will be restored" ensuring that harmony will inevitably be regained. It can also be thought of as the initial creative impetus of the Big Bang somehow paradoxically continuing to expand for eternity despite everything contracting locally due to gravity and possibly ending up in a Big Crunch or Heat Death. Taoists often say "Gravity is the source of lightness", with, two pendulum clocks hung on a wall being a more common example in physics for how this works. The pendulums will vibrate the wall coercing one another to eventually swing in harmonious unison as they occupy the lowest possible energy state where they share more of their individual identities with the wall and each other forming a self-organizing system. If I bump one clock the wall will help to absorb some of the energy helping to ensure all of them return to the lowest possible energy state that much sooner while, during an earthquake, they will swing wildly out of sync absorbing some of the energy, thus, helping to preserve the wall as well as themselves. By their identities and behavior becoming more humble and indistinguishable from that of the wall all three endure longer displaying the resilience, efficiency, and creativity of a self-organizing system.


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#9 MeAgain

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Posted November 08 2016 - 02:36 PM

I would say it sprang from the first division into existence and non-existence.

The concept of existence and non existence is a mental formation.

 

Something does exist outside of time and space but what I am referring to is the form given to this unknowable something by our mental formations due to our experiences. 

 

Perception is the contact of the senses with the unknowable agent of change. Perception arises when consciousness of the unknowable occurs due to the sensations generated by the contact of the senses with that agent of change. When consciousness acknowledges the perception of the senses it forms mental concepts of what it has experienced. These mental concepts are then taken to be reality, or form.

 

But the senses are just one more mental concept formed as consciousness learns to differentiate between the arising unknowable agent of change. In addition human consciousness arises due to the mental concepts that form from the senses sensing.

 

In other words each of the five aggregates are interdependently reliant on each other.

 

Existence and non existence have no meaning at this level as the only thing that determines existence, or form, is the complex interaction of the five aggregates.

The self is merely one more mental formation caused by these interactions. If can't be finally said to exist or not exist as it is only a mental formation and all mental formations are real only in that we are the ones who define what reality is.....and we are part of the reality we define. So as we define the self, it is just as real as we are...or aren't. 


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"Acclinis Falsis Animus Meliora Recusat"

(A mind that is charmed by false appearances refuses better things.)

~ Horace

 

 


#10 Perfection of Disorder

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Posted November 08 2016 - 03:43 PM

While I find understanding with the concept of the Five Aggregates I feel as though it is too singular. However I have not studied it myself. I did just start looking at Buddhism recently and have yet to devote myself wholly to it. The roots continue deeper and I must follow. Teach me of unity and of unique if you wish. The water seeks a channel as the channel embraces the water
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