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How To Argue For Gun Control.




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#891 jenks2026

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Posted March 20 2017 - 01:14 AM

This is a fact. 

 

Less guns = less gun crime and less shootings, whether intentional or accidental.

 

This has been statistically proven by every other western country in the world and there is no logical argument against it. No other established democracy allows open carry arms.

 

The uk, for example, has less mass shootings in 5 years than the US has in a week. That includes terrorism. 

 

France statistically, including the Paris attacks, has less gun crime in 10 years than the US in 1 month. That's including the bouts of terrorism. 

 

I appreciate there are cultural differences but what I feel is almost a joke is the Militia argument. Your constitution has amendments. The word itself actual means change / correction to something so there is no reason why it can't be changed again. At the time the amendment was made, there was a need to protect your right to protect yourself against your government. At no point in the last 100 years has a well establish democracy been taken over by government. Protecting yourself as a Militia is no longer necessary.

 

You want guns, fine, that makes sense because it's part of your DNA. That you need guns, that it's your 'right' to protect yourself against your government is absolute nonesense and it's not an opinion, it's something that's been statistically proven over and over again.

 

Just be honest and logical about it.



#892 Balbus

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Posted March 24 2017 - 01:06 AM

Mac

 

 

 

They don't cause the mirders in this country. Again, they only make half. Even if those murders by guns were immpossible to do without a firearm we will still outrank many of the western countries in murders.

 

Guns might not be the cause of deaths by accident or design but because they are such efficient weapons designed specifically to bring about lethal outcomes they are more likely to bring about deaths.

 

And of course this is again another variation on the murderous Americans argument

 

As pointed out to you numerous times it’s not half, the figure are in this thread - this is the problem you ignore what has been said if you don’t like it so you repeat the same old lies over and over

 

Homicides by any method per 100.000

 

US - 2011: 5.1

 

England and Wales - 1.03

France : 1.2

Germany 0.8

 

Gun related homicides per 100,000

 

US 2011: 3.6

 

England and Wales:  0.06

France - 0.22

Germany -  0.2

 

 

 

we will still outrank many of the western countries in murders.

 

hell man it is like you are boasting – but I think going on past comments that its more likely you just don’t seem to care – I think a more rational approach -if you believed this to be so - would be to try and think of rational ways to reduce the likelihood of such murders. Not just hope a god sorts it out.


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#893 Balbus

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Posted March 24 2017 - 01:07 AM

Mac

 

So a child that is born into disadvantage brough it upon themselves, it’s self induced?

When I said "most" I was excluding those born into a poor family.

 

Hum…well you clearly haven’t been reading the posts. As explained people born into disadvantage are disadvantaged and so find it harder to escape from disadvantaged. 

 

Therefore the argument that disregarding being born into disadvantaged from the reasons for being disadvantaged doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

Also as explained many things that affect people’s lives and fortunes are out of their personal control.

A lot of that is preventable.

 

Yes you have said this before but it would be nice to have some details.

 

I mean a lot of things can affect a person’s life from where and to whom they are born (which is a biggie) but also the standard of education (again that can be affected by birth) availability of work, the social connections, the environment, accidents, health etc etc.

 

Says the one who still think I believe a person born into a poor family became poor because of his own doing.

 

I’m sorry but as pointed out that is what you seemed to be implying for much of this discussion and I have been seeking clarification, because you often seem to make contradictory statements.

 

It falls apart at the very fundamental level, as has already been explained.

The only level we actually discussed to my recollection was those who were born into a poor environment or family.

 

You have made repeated statements along the lines that you think most people deserve to be disadvantaged because that position is self induced, but you really haven’t backed up that viewpoint, other than that you believe it, but as pointed out a lot of the disadvantage are born into disadvantage .

 

How often do you hear of corruption in the government? How often have you heard of the government, even in a socialist environment, failing to provide for the people?

 

So if you know corruption is taking place then have you passed your evidence on to the police?

 

Or is it just that you’ve heard about it? And who have you heard it from? 


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#894 Balbus

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Posted March 24 2017 - 01:08 AM

Mac



Yes we have been through all this – let’s have a test – what are my criticisms of your views – I mean we have been through this many times you should know what my criticism will be if you have actually been reading the post you will know them if you can’t then you have been dishonestly ignoring them all along.

 

First of all even if I can't recall them that doesn't mean I'm ignoring them. After all we aren't responding everyday. Secondly to answer your question your criticism of my views is that the easy access of firearms is the cause of gun violence in America and if I recall correctly its also the cause of murder in America as well.

 

Well that statement makes it very clear that you need to read the posts  

 

My response to that is it's irrelevant because on the first point (a) 60% of gun deaths are suicides which that's a different animal of itself and (b) gun deaths belongs to a bigger organism called violent crime. We are focusing on the tool being used rather than the root cause. On your second contention, that guns are the cause of murder in general in America, to that I say firearms account for only half of all homicides. There is no guarantee that the homicides committed with firearms cannot be committed through other means.

 

But you are responding to arguments that haven’t been made.

 

We have been through the whole suicide thing hundreds of times and again I’m shocked (but not surprised) how easily you dismiss all those deaths.

 

The B and C parts of your response seem like just more variation on the murderous Americans argument


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#895 Balbus

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Posted March 24 2017 - 01:08 AM

Mac

 

LOL – your main ‘solution’ so far has been the hope that people will turn to worshiping your god and so stop being ‘bad’.

 

Irrevalent to what I said. Whether it be God, education, jobs, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the fact of the matter is illogical to focus only on gun deaths.

 

Why is it illogical to focus on ways to try and lessen gun deaths, wouldn’t the most logical thing to do when you see a problem is to try and find a rational solution not just hope a god intervenes?


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#896 Balbus

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Posted March 24 2017 - 01:09 AM

Mac

 

We have been through the suicide thing - you ignored the criticisms of your view then and are just repeating stuff you know has outstanding criticisms already leveled at it.

 

 

What did I ignored?

 

Well seemingly most of our conversations on the subject LOL

 

 

 

That they are "easier" to commit with a gun? … Not only that but half of suicides in America are caused by other means.  

 

Guns are not the most common means of suicide attempt, but they result in more deaths than every other method combined.

 

 

 

To the first one is irrelevant as those who are willing to commit suicide will do so at any cost.

We have been through that before, but ok again…

 

About 90 percent of people who survive suicide attempts don’t go on to kill themselves.

 

One of the biggest myths about suicide prevention is the notion that people who don’t succeed at killing themselves will simply find another means until they succeed, says Dr. Matthew Miller, the co-director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center.

 

“You’ve got people saying, ‘Oh, if he didn’t shoot himself, he would have jumped off a tall building or found another way to kill himself.’ It’s not illogical, it’s just wrong — wrong in the face of facts that strongly say otherwise,” he says.
 

According to Catherine Barber, a suicide expert and Miller’s Harvard colleague, extensive research on this topic shows that between 5 and 11 percent of people who attempt suicides will go on to kill themselves — but the majority will not.

 

That’s because suicide is often an impulsive decision. One study found that a quarter of people took less than five minutes between deciding to kill themselves and attempting suicide.

 

https://www.thetrace...evention-month/


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#897 Maccabee

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Posted March 24 2017 - 04:00 PM

The guy was armed as well and much of the casualties were possibly of shooting.


Evidence? And even if much of the casualties were from firearms doesn't France have strict gun control? Either way your point fails. Either the guy killed 80 people with a truck or he killed most of them with firearms in a country with strict gun control.


Violence is wrong wherever it may be, and these countries along with U.S, head the world in terms of mass shootings showcasing an uncivilized and brutal culture of violence and guns.


It only show the culture of violence. Again the countries I listed have strict gun control.

However I must say that stricter gun controls were adopted in Australia in 1996, following a gun massacre in Tasmania that killed 35 people, which resulted substantially in fewer casualty and homicide statistics in later years.


New Zealand hasn't banned anything since 1996 and they haven't had a mass shooting either. Besides its not about gun violence but violent crime in general.

Here is a report


Violent crime as a whole rose after the mandatory but back. Also more Aussies own guns than before the ban. Does that mean more guns equals less crime by your logic?
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#898 Maccabee

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Posted March 24 2017 - 04:12 PM

This is a fact.

Less guns = less gun crime and less shootings, whether intentional or accidental.


It is not a fact. If it were then Mexico, Russia, and other countries wouldn't have the high gun crimes they do. And Britain wouldn't have experienced the gun crime spike after the handgun ban.

This has been statistically proven by every other western country in the world and there is no logical argument against it. No other established democracy allows open carry arms.


Then why did Britain experienced a gun crime spike for a good while?

The uk, for example, has less mass shootings in 5 years than the US has in a week. That includes terrorism.


Was it like that before the ban?

France statistically, including the Paris attacks, has less gun crime in 10 years than the US in 1 month. That's including the bouts of terrorism.


Because you're comparing a 3,000 mile wide country with various gun laws and demographics to a country the size of Texas. And again, gun crime is irrelevant if murder is unaffected and violent crime in general is on the rise.

I appreciate there are cultural differences but what I feel is almost a joke is the Militia argument. Your constitution has amendments. The word itself actual means change / correction to something so there is no reason why it can't be changed again.


You'll need a 2/3 agreement with all of the states to even consider changing the amendment.

At the time the amendment was made, there was a need to protect your right to protect yourself against your government. At no point in the last 100 years has a well establish democracy been taken over by government. Protecting yourself as a Militia is no longer necessary.


Protection doesn't have to be proactive. Just because a castle with a wall hasn't been successfully been conquered doesn't mean the wall is of no use. The fact that there's over 400 million guns and at least 80 million gun owners makes the government, whether foriegn or domestic, think twice before infringing upon our rights.

You want guns, fine, that makes sense because it's part of your DNA. That you need guns, that it's your 'right' to protect yourself against your government is absolute nonesense and it's not an opinion, it's something that's been statistically proven over and over again.

Just be honest and logical about it.


See above. Besides, aside from being a deterrent against a tyrannical government firearms allows us to defend ourselves from criminals.
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#899 Maccabee

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Posted March 24 2017 - 04:50 PM

Mac




Guns might not be the cause of deaths by accident or design but because they are such efficient weapons designed specifically to bring about lethal outcomes they are more likely to bring about deaths.


And? Cars when driven at high speeds increases the likelyhood of a crash becoming deadly.

And of course this is again another variation on the murderous Americans argument


Murderous any country. You have yet to prove that Britain decreased their murder rate after the handgun ban.

As pointed out to you numerous times it’s not half, the figure are in this thread - this is the problem you ignore what has been said if you don’t like it so you repeat the same old lies over and over


My mistake. It's more like 64% that is caused by guns but even with that stat we still have twice the amount of other countries.

Homicides by any method per 100.000

US - 2011: 5.1

England and Wales - 1.03
France : 1.2
Germany 0.8

Gun related homicides per 100,000

US 2011: 3.6

England and Wales: 0.06
France - 0.22
Germany - 0.2


That still leaves us ahead of the countries you listed even if we somehow get rid of guns altogether and assuming the homicides by gun cannot be made by any other method.



hell man it is like you are boasting – but I think going on past comments that its more likely you just don’t seem to care – I think a more rational approach -if you believed this to be so - would be to try and think of rational ways to reduce the likelihood of such murders. Not just hope a god sorts it out...


Or restricting gun rights.
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#900 Maccabee

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Posted March 24 2017 - 04:56 PM

Mac

So a child that is born into disadvantage brough it upon themselves, it’s self induced?


Hum…well you clearly haven’t been reading the posts. As explained people born into disadvantage are disadvantaged and so find it harder to escape from disadvantaged.


How is that any different to what I just said?

Therefore the argument that disregarding being born into disadvantaged from the reasons for being disadvantaged doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.


How so? Do you have stats showing most people who are poor we're born into it?

Also as explained many things that affect people’s lives and fortunes are out of their personal control.


Many, but not most when you get right down to it.

Yes you have said this before but it would be nice to have some details.

I mean a lot of things can affect a person’s life from where and to whom they are born (which is a biggie) but also the standard of education (again that can be affected by birth) availability of work, the social connections, the environment, accidents, health etc etc.



I’m sorry but as pointed out that is what you seemed to be implying for much of this discussion and I have been seeking clarification, because you often seem to make contradictory statements.

It falls apart at the very fundamental level, as has already been explained.


You have made repeated statements along the lines that you think most people deserve to be disadvantaged because that position is self induced, but you really haven’t backed up that viewpoint, other than that you believe it, but as pointed out a lot of the disadvantage are born into disadvantage .


How many is a lot? How many of those parents were born into it? How many of those grandparents were born into it?



So if you know corruption is taking place then have you passed your evidence on to the police?


Because I haven't dealt with it personally. When I said it I was being generic.

Or is it just that you’ve heard about it? And who have you heard it from?


News reports.
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys