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How To Argue For Gun Control.




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#21 Balbus

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Posted July 29 2016 - 10:16 AM

 

Number of Gun related Deaths in the US

 

2014 - 33,599

 

Number of gun related homicides in the US

 

2014 - 10,945

 

Number of Combat deaths of US troops in wars

 

American Civil War – 212,938 that’s 53,234 per year

 

WWII  - 291,557 that’s about 73,000 per year

 

WWI - 53,402 that’s in one year

 

Vietnam War - 47,000 that is over 20 years but the largest death rate in one year was in 1968 at 16,899

 

 Korean War - 33,746 works out at 11,248 per year

 

It’s like the US is involved in a war - but - the thing to remember is that the wars above ended – the gun related deaths go on year on year

 

Number of gun related deaths

 

2014: 33,599
2013: 33,636
2012: 33,563
2011: 32,351
2010: 31,672
2009: 31,347
2008: 31,593
2007: 31,224
2006: 30,896
2005: 30,694
2004: 29,569
2003: 30,136
2002: 30,242
2001: 29,573
2000: 28,663
1999: 28,874

 

Gun related homicides

 

2014: 10,945
2013: 11,208
2012: 11,622
2011: 11,068
2010: 11,078
2009: 11,493
2008: 12,179
2007: 12,632
2006: 12,791
2005: 12,352
2004: 11,624
2003: 11,920
2002: 11,829
2001: 11,348
2000: 10,801
1999: 10,828

 

 


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#22 Maccabee

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Posted July 29 2016 - 06:29 PM

Guns and suicide: A fatal link

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts—is that so many could be prevented. Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

The lesson? Many lives would likely be saved if people disposed of their firearms, kept them locked away, or stored them outside the home. Says HSPH Professor of Health Policy David Hemenway, the ICRC’s director: “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

But few can survive a gun blast. That’s why the ICRC’s Catherine Barber has launched Means Matter, a campaign that asks the public to help prevent suicide deaths by adopting practices and policies that keep guns out of the hands of vulnerable adults and children.
https://www.hsph.har...ns-and-suicide/


Japan has a higher suicide rate than us and they have very strict gun control.

https://www.psycholo...un-suicide-myth

As to you point about people should lock guns up, how are you going to enforce that? Also if its to prevent on the spot suicides the decision making runs about 5 minutes or so. Plenty of time to access a safe.
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#23 Maccabee

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Posted July 29 2016 - 08:16 PM

I live in London it has a population of around 7.5 million and it only had 175 homicides between Apr-2005 to Apr-2006. In fact in 2009 there were only 651 murders in the whole of England and Wales with a population of around 55 million.

But let us take an American city – Philadelphia* – it I believe has a population of around 6.1 million yet it had 406 homicides in that same year. So two Philadelphia’s with only 12.2 million people would create 812 murders, more than what is produced by 55 million Brits.

But if you take out gun related homicides from the US crime figures they are not that much different from those of many European countries that have gun restrictions (although it is incredible difficult to compare any crime statistics other than homicide).

So the question is are Americans more murderous or is it just that Americans have easier access to much more lethal weapons?

*I was comparing a couple of urban areas of roughly the same size and population
density
Philadelphia - population density of 11,457 people per square mile
London - population density of 11,760 people per square mile


The former, as this 30 minute video and the sources in the description shows.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=8hyQDQPEsrs
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#24 Maccabee

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Posted July 29 2016 - 08:24 PM

OK as normal I started to reply to Mac’s post but then I got to this -




And it was here where I was beginning to suspect that we are not going to be able to have a rational argument.

It seems that in his opinion Americans, as a group, are different from other human beings in that they are much more bloodthirsty and violent than other humans.

He has the total conviction that one of the major factors for high rates of murder in the US (with many more gun related murder than other developed countries) is not ease of access to very lethal weapons but just because Americans are inherent killers and would commit just as many murders even without ease of access to guns.


Let me specify. Most of our murder rates are gang related. We have a gang problem not a gun problem. Mexico is a prime example. They have strict gun control yet their gangs are armed with RPGs. How on earth did they got a hold of those?

I then begin to look at some of the other replies and begin to despair.

In reply to my reassurance that such things as accidents and suicides have been taken into account in numerous studies on gun use I get the reply





I’m not really sure what is meant in the context but it seems to be a variation on the alternative argument that if guns were not around people would still kill themselves by alternative means (which numerous studies shown is untrue).


Japan has a higher suicide rate than us and they have strict gun control. Also firearm accidents are decreasing.

And then we come to this




To put it in context this is the reply to the statistic –

Firearm-related deaths rate per 100,000 population.

US –2011 - 10.3


Well in 2014 it was actually 10.54 which relates to 33,599 people

(in the UK in 2013 it was 0.22 which relates to 144 deaths)

But the reply suggest that in his opinion 33,599 people dying is low that he wouldn’t even begin to take notice and think something should possibly be done until the number of deaths got over 30 per 100,000 say 100,000 Americans lives taken.

So presumably he wouldn’t mind if the gun related homicide rate per 100,000 would also go up in the same way from 3.6 (2011) to say 10 per 100,000.

To me such blatant disregard for people lives is irrational when prudent measures could bring it down, rather than not care if it went up.


According to your own sources mentioned above Switzerland has gun deaths LOWER than England.
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Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#25 Maccabee

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Posted July 29 2016 - 08:46 PM

[quote name="MeAgain" post="7927376" timestamp="1469805069"]

You are confusing justice with the law. If you feel a law is unjust you fight to change it.[/quote]

Ok?

So what? Show me a bill that proposes to take away the 2nd.


I can't find a bill but I can find politicians for the repel of the second.

https://foac-pac.org.../News-Item/4752

The militias did contribute and a few units excelled,but most were used for guard duty ans suppressing riots after it was found that they couldn't stand up to a regular army.


Still we held on.

Not really. There are speed limits imposed on our highways. You don't infringe in others' right to drive by speeding but you do endanger their safety.


That's the definition of an infringement of my rights. Plus how is me owning a certain weapon making you unsafe? Is owning a Lamborghini infringing or endangering your rights?

No I wouldn't be surprised. We already have gun regulation and you still have guns.

How do you know that? Source please.


I believe its given above.

So what?


So assault weapon bans and mag restrictions are uneffective.

Armed with reason disputes that.


And this reimburse my statement.

http://www.breitbart...gun-free-zones/

I haven't seen any crimes committed with a machine gun lately. They were regulated in 1934.

Source. You are speculating.

"And yet OKC, and Boston happened. And there never was a much of a problem with full autos."
So we should allow all weapons to be owned by everyone.[/quote]

Here some sources.

http://m.naturalnews...l#ixzz3euhrMWKK

http://www.guncite.c...l_gcfullau.html
Scripture, facts, stats, science, and logic is how I argue.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" Don Boys

"Why do you trust the government with automatic weapons but not honest citizens?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't prison government sanction kidnapping?" D. Boys

#26 MeAgain

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Posted July 30 2016 - 07:22 AM

 

I can't find a bill but I can find politicians for the repel of the second.

https://foac-pac.org.../News-Item/4752

From your source:

“The Supreme Court is wrong on the Second Amendment,” ~ Hillary Clinton

 

She was referring to assault weapons.

 how is me owning a certain weapon making you unsafe? Is owning a Lamborghini infringing or endangering your rights?

It is not endangering my rights it is endangering my safety. The same for traffic laws.

 

You have not provided proof that every time a gun is present a mass shooting has been stopped.

Just because a weapon has stopped a shooting that does not mean that the presence of a weapon will stop all mass shootings.

Just as because we can't stop all mass shootings that doesn't mean we can't work to make if harder for them to be committed.

 

 

http://www.breitbart...gun-free-zones/

This doesn't mean the areas were targeted because they were gun free zones.

 

Here some sources.

 

Your first source is an interpretation of an FBI report, the report never stated what the title implies.

The second tells us that out of 250,000 properly registered machine guns only one has been used in a crime since 1934 and that crime was committed by a police officer.

Sounds like the law works pretty well to me.


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"Oh, how sweet it is to hear one's own convictions from another's lips"

~ Goethe

 

 


#27 ElEyeJaw

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Posted July 31 2016 - 12:38 PM

OK as normal I started to reply to Mac’s post but then I got to this -

 

 

 

 

And it was here where I was beginning to suspect that we are not going to be able to have a rational argument.

 

It seems that in his opinion Americans, as a group, are different from other human beings in that they are much more bloodthirsty and violent than other humans.

 

He has the total conviction that one of the major factors for high rates of murder in the US (with many more gun related murder than other developed countries) is not ease of access to very lethal weapons but just because Americans are inherent killers and would commit just as many murders even without ease of access to guns.

 

I then begin to look at some of the other replies and begin to despair.

 

In reply to my reassurance that such things as accidents and suicides have been taken into account in numerous studies on gun use I get the reply

 

 

 

 

 

I’m not really sure what is meant in the context but it seems to be a variation on the alternative argument that if guns were not around people would still kill themselves by alternative means (which numerous studies shown is untrue).

 

And then we come to this

 

 

 

 

To put it in context this is the reply to the statistic –

 

Firearm-related deaths rate per 100,000 population.

US –2011 - 10.3

 

Well in 2014 it was actually 10.54 which relates to 33,599 people

 

(in the UK in 2013 it was 0.22 which relates to 144 deaths)

 

But the reply suggest that in his opinion 33,599 people dying is low that he wouldn’t even begin to take notice and think something should possibly be done until the number of deaths got over 30 per 100,000 say 100,000 Americans lives taken.

 

So presumably he wouldn’t mind if the gun related homicide rate per 100,000 would also go up in the same way from 3.6 (2011) to say 10 per 100,000.

 

To me such blatant disregard for people lives is irrational when prudent measures could bring it down, rather than not care if it went up.

The United States is bigger and more populated than most other countries are, so it's silly to bring up the murder rates of much smaller countries, might as well assume an apple and an orange are the same type of fruit. Brazil has the highest murder rate in the world and most of the people there do not own firearms.


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#28 ElEyeJaw

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Posted July 31 2016 - 12:39 PM

You are confusing justice with the law. If you feel a law is unjust you fight to change it.

 

So what? Show me a bill that proposes to take away the 2nd.
 

The militias did contribute and a few units excelled,but most were used for guard duty ans suppressing riots after it was found that they couldn't stand up to a regular army.
 

Not really. There are speed limits imposed on our highways. You don't infringe in others' right to drive by speeding but you do endanger their safety.
 

No I wouldn't be surprised. We already have gun regulation and you still have guns.
 

How do you know that? Source please.
 

So what?

 

Armed with reason disputes that.
 

I haven't seen any crimes committed with a machine gun lately. They were regulated in 1934.
 

Source. You are speculating.
 

"And yet OKC, and Boston happened. And there never was a much of a problem with full autos."

So we should allow all weapons to be owned by everyone.

gang bangers  and cartels never get automatic weapons?


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#29 ElEyeJaw

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Posted July 31 2016 - 12:42 PM

Guns and suicide: A fatal link

 

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts—is that so many could be prevented. Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.

 

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

 

The lesson? Many lives would likely be saved if people disposed of their firearms, kept them locked away, or stored them outside the home. Says HSPH Professor of Health Policy David Hemenway, the ICRC’s director: “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

 

But few can survive a gun blast. That’s why the ICRC’s Catherine Barber has launched Means Matter, a campaign that asks the public to help prevent suicide deaths by adopting practices and policies that keep guns out of the hands of vulnerable adults and children.

https://www.hsph.har...ns-and-suicide/

guns do not cause suicides, sucicidal people are the cause of suicides. Might as wel call for more restrictions on tall cliffs and high rise buildings, because it's always possible for someone to get up there and jump off. I highly doubt you've ever used a firearm to begin with, as far as why I think I need a gun to guarantee my safety, would you rather me attempt to disarm someone who has a gun, if they broke into my house, or use a gun against them to protect myself? The cops are not always reliable


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#30 Irminsul

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Posted July 31 2016 - 02:36 PM

And cars too. Ban those cars! More people die in car accidents every day that people die from gunshots in suburbia. Ban the cars! Ban the trucks! And ban those bloody toasters too!! Keep 'em off the shelves and outta the bathtubs!
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Red, white, black are our true colours
For these colours we will fight!
Red, white, black will crush the enemy
And will bring back what is right!





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