Who Cares About Evidence?

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by TheSamantha, May 13, 2016.

  1. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I am a good example of Santa, so Santa lives right here..........lol


    or is that Mrs. Santa.....you should see me go......:D
     
  2. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Santa....Satan...ok, scratch that...same letters.......nv...No, I am not Santa....
     
  3. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    So , yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus! That Santa is based on a real person is far different from being a real person in the form of the jolly old elf kids love. I agree that he's real metaphorically, but only in the sense of Francis Church's editorial.
     
  4. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    I think belief in God is a different situation from belief in a clearly fictional character. There is enough evidence to support the belief that reasonable people can be convinced that it's true. In that case, it's a gamble, but I'd advise making an educated bet on the basis of your assessment of the best available evidence. It might be an error, but you've done the best you can. As a matter of fact, I think that's the human predicament. Nothing is certain, not even that. But believing in clearly erroneous crap (I put Santa in that category) just because, for some reason, it feels good strikes me as absurd. Not even Kierkegaard went that far, and Tertulian was carried away with a lawyer's rhetoric when he said: "I believe because it is absurd."
     
  5. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    A question might be for the Christmas thing, is there any fallout when kids discover that Santa Claus is a lie? For many kids that's probably the most exciting and celebrated time of the year, but is there perhaps an effect, maybe not immediate but lingering effect into adulthood from realizing such a fabrication, that perhaps correlates with some of the devious and seedy aspects that the culture at large exhibits?

    Probably tough to say really as we are immersed in the culture and there are so many variables to consider, but maybe something to think about. I don't know when or how to value tradition over truth but personally I think the Christmas lie is not completely innocuous.

    But I digress... Our whole lives, particularly in the West, are dominated by evidence... Everything from what we write on this forum, to receipts, to ticket events, to sentimental cards/gifts, and so on, so I'm not sure where faith has anywhere near equal bearing in understanding reality, let alone where we can rely on it in favor to dismiss evidence. And This Is a type of faith that is different than the "faith" we rely on to trust that our alarm clock will wake us up. I think most reasonable people would like to attempt to understand reality to the best of their abilities, so if evidence is the standard, then the "error" in the approach of believing something that cannot be proven or disproven is unecessarily diminishing the standard. But that is under the presumption that is the standard and that reality presents itself as it actually is to a certain extent. If one ascribes to a strong form of idealism or maintains that faith is superior to evidence, then they can probably reconcile beliefs in whatever they want.
     
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  6. Total Darkness

    Total Darkness 100% Cocoa

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    I use the word God because its a perfect example of something that can neither be proven nor disproved. I could've made the reverse example. These other fictional characters have more evidence against their existence than for. So it would've been an unfair example.
     
  7. I don't believe in Kierkegaard. Santa is far more influential than Kierkegaard could ever dream of being.

    If believing in something brings me happiness and harms no one, what is the problem? I guess it's just disgusting to other people that some people live in a fantasy world. I suppose it's such a gulf between people that it makes us feel uncomfortable, like there's no hope for any reconciliation, the kind of understanding of reality we all must share in order to make our proposed realities concrete.

    It's funny how one person believing in something or refusing to believe in something changes that something or the lack thereof so much for other people. Why can't we appreciate our separate realities like we all have different tastes in literature or art? I mean, these days, it's always good if someone's reading a book, no matter what they're reading, just because they're reading. Can't we just accept that it's always good for someone to be conscious, regardless of what they're conscious of? haha
     
  8. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I was thinking along these lines, as well......Something gets set in early development with believing in Santa.....some times that is not such a good thing.....as in life, wishes do not all come true......
     
  9. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    I rest my case.
     
  10. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    I'm curious,
    What evidence would some of you require to confirm the existence of God?

    being most familiar with Christianity I know that in the Old Testament fulfillment of prophecy is what was used most to confirm God's existence.

    In the NT it is also prophecy but adds the signs/gifts of the Holy Spirit as confirmation.
    so as far as the Bible is concerned, it doesn't ask for a totally blind faith and gives confirmation, contrary to what is commonly believed concerning faith as taught in the Bible.


    so what would it take for some of you to be convinced, fulfillment of prophecy, miracles, a warm fuzzy feeling, a visitation from the Grand Pubah, what would it take?
     
  11. Bud D

    Bud D Member

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    People look forward to 'end times' as Gods second coming. Always speculating looking for the anti-Christ and a Great War in the Middle East.
     
  12. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    How could there ever be proof of an Abrahamic God? No matter what is offered someone could always postulate an alternative explanation.
     
  13. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Maybe if "God" had an Instagram, Snapchat or some Internet account that provided pics, blogs and vids of far off Galaxies and Planets, that'd be convincing evidence. Might be a bit of a stretch getting it to work with our servers but if the popular notion asserted of it being able to form universes, I think it could make it happen. Of course it could still be super advanced mortal alien(s) of some sort doing that work but it'd be impressive.
     
  14. Perfect Disorder

    Perfect Disorder Paradoxically Spontaneous

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    Always seeking never finding. Desiring knowledge presenting why. Knowledge cannot birth contentment, only want. Want births desire and thus always lacks fulfillment. Striving to accept desire and to acknowledge that it will never fulfill I seek to release it. This is my Way and will never be fully achieved. Because of this I need no evidence of divinity though once it's desire was like a consuming flame within me.
     
  15. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    And there, once again, is the difference between evidence and proof. Someone could always postulate. But if there is evidence sufficient to support a reasonable belief, a reasonable person might take a chance. (and does the God have to be Abrahamic or will any God do?) It's a matter of judgment: informed opinion.
     
  16. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    I thought I offered what the Bible itself states is "proof", did you miss that part?
    I'll leave it up to you to ascertain the validity of it yourself, I'm not really here to convince anyone of anything.

    what do other religions that ascribe to a deity such as God(s) offer as evidence?

    So what would constitute adequate proof in your eyes, MeAgain, of either the Abrahamic God or any other deity that fulfills the definition?
     
  17. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Some thoughts.....

    it is interesting to note that holidays correlate with nature and the seasons....Easter.....Spring is opening up...rebirth....rebudding....resurrection, so to speak......Christmas.....winter solstice.......
    I always wonder why people want to believe in something that is outside of themselves.....If you become in harmony in nature what else do you need? maybe God is one side of the coin and Satan the other side, so to speak.... and both are the same person, but two sides of the same person, as we can all have....as in yin yang....light, dark..........Which side do you follow of yourself?.....your higher self or your lower self.......your higher self being of pure love and good intent or your lower self letting jealousies, vanities, and all of those negative emotions take over and direct your actions?

    Also, there is such a thing as self full filling propechies....You believe in something with every cell of your being, you can bring that about.

    Just some random thoughts on the subject.
     
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Well I think the Bible would be a self referential proof, just like the Book of Mormon.

    I really can't see any way to prove the existence of any God (depending on how the particular God is defined).
    Remember even science never offers absolute proofs, all scientific facts are up for revision at any time.
     
  19. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    I think this line of discussion is veering toward the familiar issue of "Is there a God", which has a thread of its own. The matter came up when the OP alleged that Christians required belief without evidence,, and Noxious Gas pointed out that Christians believe they have evidence--a word that keeps morphing into "proof". More explicitly, most Christians believe, rightly or wrongly, that the prophecies and miracles recorded in scripture provide evidence, or that their own personal experiences or observations do, or that the observable facts of nature are most plausibly explained by the God hypothesis. The validity of this "evidence" can be disputed, but it is still evidence in the eyes of the people who are convinced by it.
     
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  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I'll revise my statement: I don't see any evidence or proof of any Abrahamic or other God(s)...depending on the definition of a particular God.
    And I don't see any way of discovering any solid evidence or proof, as anything offered could always be debated. Unlike Scientific "facts" there is no way to disprove any evidence, no way to test a God hypothesis, and no way for peer review of any offered test.

    So while the faithful may find their own proof or evidence there is no way to validate what they have found similar to the scientific method or even through common sense.
     

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