Laveyan Satanism

It's interesting that you bring up libertarianism and religion. There are some people on these forums that can speak better on this than I can, I only saw this indirectly, as opposed to some people that where actually there. But there was a pocket of libertarians here in Colorado, back in the early days in the 70's. I think they may have even been trying to start a Libertarian community.

Anyway, being the anarchist I was fascinated with the concept of less government, so I contacted them. One of them told me I should read Ayn Rand, so I went out and bought every book on Ayn Rand I could find (None of which was to be found at Denver's underground bookstore (RIP---Radical Information Project Bookstore Collective) which should have been a clue). On about the second page of the first book I started reading Ayn shard her views on altruism---I thought, 'wait a minute, I must have missed something,' and reread the paragraph. I thoght, 'I must still be missing something.' and started over at the beginning----"Nope, she meant what she wrote."

I never read more than those 2 pages of all those books and then put them up on a shelf and never touched them again (well---until five years ago or so when I actually critiqued her philosophy of Objectivism.) Even as a young teenager I couldn't stomach her.

At the time though I wastold that there were liberal as well as conservative libertarians, but I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to them----especially since I spent almost the entire 80's and a good portion of the 90's living abroad. It wasn't until sometime in the 2000's that I got to know a few libertarians and was shocked at how right wing conservative they were. This includes the right wing Christian perspective.

I have met some on this forum who were actually a part of that original enclave of Libertarians here in Colorado. I was told how everything was pretty cool, and there was an honest attempt to try to work out how to lessen the restrictions of government and so forth. But then along came a group of right wing Christians. Somehow they gained influence over the group and pretty soon it was reshaped into their ideals. Before long they (the one or two I have talked to here on Hipforums) all left the group disillusioned. On the one hand the group promoted less government, but on the other hand it pushed for enforcement of their conservative religious ideals. I have seen this with other Libertarians I have talked to---take the issue of abortion for example.

 

Of course. I already knew that.

 

why can't we just take it, that there are things we don't know, that christianity is probably wrong about, but that no one knows anything about either?

i really don't see the need, to even imagine any such thing as a satan, or even any of the things familiar name brand religions claim to know.

there could as easily be a diversity of something like gods, without any of the hierarchies, conflicting or otherwise.
no wars nor pretensions of infallibility, and no reason we could not be like that too.

 

That's why I find atheists annoying. They claim to be sure about the meaning of life, and that life is overrated or that it sucks.

I hate how they spread god awful ideas, like that there's no free will, or that everything is pointless. They need to stay away.

 

Sorry for the rant, it was a tad rash

 

Sorry atheists!

 

Are you apologizing because you don't want to sound crass or because you actually understand why all these things you posted make no sense? Because if you like I can lay out why this post here is completely amiss.

 

I think it is a way of provoking a reaction. She might mean it in a way but she's also fully aware if it is ment lterally it is a false statement. She's talking about a particular kind of atheist that we all know is out there and is usually also the loudest. But just because that's the one we hear and see proclaiming their certainties most of the time doesn't mean that's what an atheist is , thinks or acts by default.

I was also thinking you don't have to apologize because most atheists would say I don't feel adressed by your statement.

Even when it would be mainly about 'them' or certain atheists' assertion that there's no free will (with which I disagree) or an absolute point in life (seems right to me, you have to give your life meaning yourself) then it seems she's just apologizing for being annoyed by such statements. Seems fitting but unneccessary No point in giving in to feeling annoyed by the different conclusions of others about these matters. Even when they would be satanists
Of course I can see it gets slightly different if it would be like someone in your house and they often get preachy about it but hey, that's not the case here. Just thinking out loud...!

 

Lay it on me

 

Snort. Rofl.

Now .... about those god awful ideas .... I find the one of the funniest ones to be Matthew 21:18-22

 

I think you're confused here; it is religions which claim to know the meaning of life, in great detail. Atheists can answer this question in any number of ways, for example an atheist can be an existentialist and think the meaning of life is essentially to exist, or an atheist can be a buddhist and think the meaning of life is to achieve liberation from samsara, or an atheist can think there is no meaning to life and we must forge our own, etc. There is no dogma in atheism, only a lack of belief in god.

This is literally the foundation of most people's theology; that life is a mere shadow of the true nature of things, that the world is of sin, that the world is only a cosmic laboratory for god's experiment, etc. In my experience atheists tend to be incredibly amazed by life and incredibly worried at how little religious people care about this world and with what deluded fervor they wait and seek to bring about its swift demise.

Are you aware that Muslims believe in Predestination? Like, ALL of them? Are you aware of Calvinism, a MAJOR branch of christianity (at least historically) that believes everything is determined?

Atheism does not contain an opinion about determinism or free will; atheism is the lack of belief in gods. I happen to be an atheist, who doesn't believe in free will, and who likes Pepsi. I can find you an atheist, on this forum, who believes in free will, and likes Coke.

Why is the idea that there's no free will a "god awful" idea? It's one of the great debates in Philosphy, one of the largest topics of study for the intellect in all of history, with a dazzling diversity of opinions and beliefs on the matter.

Honest question for you . . . which universe appeals to you more:

A) The universe is a natural phenomenon, having come to existence from the sheer potentiality of the void and giving birth to sentient beings who have developed neurologies which seek patterns in things in which there may not be the kinds of patterns they are seeking. Life is a perplexing mystery, not needing a solution for it's not a "problem", life is a dance of interconnected phenomena, consciousness, form and formless light . . . an infinite bounty of experiences and possibilities await, asking only your courage and imagination to explore inner and outer space, and the potential for US to forge real, universal love amongst ourselves, not because someone tells us to, but because love is the most amazing thing we can experience.

B) You exist because a super creature named Allah has created you so that you worship Allah. He has given you everything you need to understand why you should worship Allah; he's even so nice, he once told the secrets of the universe (well, sent one of his bureaucrats to do it) to an illiterate warlord merchant in the desert. If you successfully pass his test and think he's the most swellest of all the swells, he will bestow you with an eternity of hanging out with him and his bureaucrats, being totally stoked about getting to hang out with Allah. If you're a dude, you'll get mad spirit pussy. If, using the brain he gave you, you fail to be convinced, he will burn you alive for all eternity, continuously healing your wounds only that he may inflict unimaginable agony again, and again, and again, without hope of mercy, because you just suck that much. Even though he's the one who made you, and even though before he made you he KNEW you would fail to be stoked about him and you'd roast forever in agony.

Do you feel that Universe B is better because it "gives you meaning"?

Be very careful of someone giving you meaning; that's not how it works. Life is hard work; you might even have to figure out your own meaning. It starts with small steps, like not picturing atheists to all be grimacing depressed frenchmen who just want to abort babies and outlaw christmas. You're an adult now, please stop thinking in stereotypes.

 

As always as we try to figure out how others view the world solely by going by their theology/religion we can easily go wrong. I know from experience that in reality muslims do not all believe in predestination. Same with calvinist christians, although it can be argued that all christians part of a calvinistic branch who do not believe in predestination are not properly following the calvinist teachings: but hey that's reality. People are not their religion. Especially when it's an old mainstream one.

 

Far be it from me to defend Calvinism, but I have to agree. I don't actually recall ever meeting a Christian who believed in pre-destination in the Calvinist ( or earlier Augustinian) sense. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't think such doctrines exercise much power over the average Christian.

One of the reasons St. Augustine (who was the first to talk about pre-destination in the Christian tradition I think) struggled with this idea is that it negates any kind of moral effort, as the saved are pre-destined to be saved and the dammed to be dammed.

 

Do you think there is an infinite degree to which someone can claim to profess belief in a dogma and deviate wholly from its contents in action?

Like, is a vegan still a vegan if all they eat is meat?

If someone says they are X and their beliefs and actions do not align with X as I understand X, I have zero problem with bringing that up with them and asking them to explain themselves.

For example,

Qadar (Arabic: قدر‎, transliterated qadar, meaning "fate", "divine fore-ordainment", "predestination")[1] is the concept of divine destiny in Islam.[2] It is one of Islam's six articles of faith, along with belief in the Oneness of Allah, the Revealed Books, the Prophets of Islam, the Day of Resurrection and Angels. This concept has also been mentioned in the Quran as Allah's "Decree".

It is literally one of the foundational beliefs of Islam.

I do not see the virtue in giving people a free pass on calling themselves whatever they want. "Sure, I'm a Feminist, I just think women should be paid half of what men are paid, and husbands should be able to beat their wives."

Who you have and have not met in your person travels is of little consequence; Predestination is a central pillar of calvinism. I would go even farther and say that many theists have an unexamined internal belief in predestination, stemming from their belief that god is omnipotent and omniscient; a point of cognitive dissonance between their belief that life is a moral test of free will and the universe is ruled by a being who knows all.

 

I'm not sure where the line is. It is most likely not absolute I'm not arguing your urge to bring it up with them and ask them to explain themselves I don't see it as a virtue of mine either.

I simply saw your statement and based on my own experiences I'm telling you the statement is false. It seems right if you go by theory but appears false if we look at reality. I know it frustrates you that people follow a certain organisation that states what they should believe and they don't, and you can confront those 'followers' all you like or project things onto them but people simply connect themselves to such organisations for more than one reason.

To you it is of little consequence. Apparently. But I decide for myself what that means to me. I think that people believe differently than their affiliated religions prescribe means a lot. It can not be neglected.

 

If it's a religion then there is nonsense involved.

 

Satanism takes it to a new level though.

 

Not sure about that. I admit I'm no expert, I had to look up Laveyan Satanism on Wikepedia. The one religion I do know something about is Catholicism. I went to Catholic school and church. Everything had to be Catholic when I was growing up. Anyway, from what I read about this Laveyan Satanism I see neither more nor less nonsense when compared to Catholicism. It's just very different. I'm no more tempted to join Satanism than I am to join any other church or cult.

Why do people go to church anyway? I've never heard a good answer. I just found it to be tediously boring.

 

Well, if you don't know anything about them it is easy to not feel tempted right? But to be honest I don't feel any urge to join any church (that rhymes!) either. It is just that satanism is too anti, too constructed to be an alternative to other religions, it even has some rituals that are merely backwards versions of a ritual of another religion they oppose. Doesn't get much more nonsensical than that. Well, maybe that would depend on the use they assigned to that specific ritual of theirs, but how many Laveyan satanists really take that serious? What's the point? I can see the use, purpose, origin and meaning of catholic rituals, and even if they mean nothing to me I can acknowledge what it means to others. With satanic rituals not so much

 

Without Christianity Satanism couldn't even exist. It's an outcome of having a dualistic world view where God is good and Satan is bad. Always going to be some who take the side of the bad - in my opinion, mainly for show. I don't think they take it that seriously.