Where Is Man's Inner Compass?

"Law" in this context doesn't necessarily mean the legal system, it's more like the use of the term when talking about the "Laws" of nature. I thought the potential for confusion might be there, which is why I also supplied "maxim".

While Kant does primarily focus his philosophy in terms of a humanistic framework, I think that the particular initial maxim of universality could very well be applied to interaction with animals as well, and inner compass is presumably inextricably linked with our categorical imperative of moral responsibility.

 

universal truths?

or being in tune with the universe.

 

Yah I suppose...

It's a nice, quaint saying but is it something that applies to actual circumstances? What would being untuned to the universe mean?

 

I'd say it comes out of empathy. I don't like to suffer, and because of that I don't like to see suffering in others, be it animals or people.

You did mention the Bible in your OP - and the ethics there are an attempt to set down a standard. But actually, that may block the natural empathy one feels as it's very partisan. Your supposed to feel empathy for the good guys but not the bad guys.The righteous in heaven can look down with contempt on those who suffer in hell. Yet another reason I think it's no good to us.

 

Didn't you say today on another thread that Christians do not believe that animals have a soul? that would certainly block any empathy, and what is soul? Feeling? Man is the only life on this planet to feel anything? This is what i reject vehemently......
so i am just empath? with out soul....? I screamed at my grandfather as a baby to throw a fish he caught back and to stop cutting down a tree.....I never read anything at that point or learned any of that from anywhere.....so what is that?

 

"What would being untuned to the universe mean? "

The earth, stars, moon, galaxy and all that there is one big huge symphony, ballet.....the universe has its own laws......I fight against some of the segments...the violent ones......so i guess I am not in tune.

 

I did say that, and that's what they believe. I don't believe it - as I think I said in the same place.

I've seen the feeling in the eyes of dogs and cats, cows too. I think they feel things as we do. My guess would be that as a child you were sensitive, and somehow - although please don't ask for an account of how - you felt the distress of the fish and were upset by it. Similar thing with the tree. Cutting one down is quite a noisy and even violent process. So it upset you.
I'm only giving it a shot here - there could be other explanations.

 

Somewhere along the line I totally missed that whole conversation regarding you, BBB saying that about Christians thinking animals have no souls.

That's news to me!

I've never gotten that idea from the bible, nor have I been "taught" that one way or the other. Animals having a soul is actually something I've never discussed irl with anybody calling themselves a Christian, not to my face. For anybody that would broach that subject with me would know that I absolutely believe that animals have a type of soul, an essence that continues on! It goes without saying that I have Christian beliefs, and those that know me would know we would have quite a time questioning that to my face

I felt I needed to stop that thought there. Animals having a soul is not something that is totally frowned up from those I know, the Christians I know in general, I can assure you.

 

Yah that's kind of what I was pondering, we both recognize the prevalence of these contrarian segments to morality, so it makes me wonder how immutable categorical imperatives are. Or in regards to being in tune... I think one would almost have to be a dualist to separate a being in tune from a being not in tune with the universe. Because if you are a materialist/physicalist or a monist and maintain that you are a fully emergent being of the Universe, then there is no aspect of yourself which is not also (to anthropomorphize ) the tuning or whim of the universe. I don't think it makes much sense to really say one is "not in tune with the universe" at that point.

 

Whatever we have, animals have as well...We are all living matter from star material.....is my belief......
Dualist...like light and dark..i guess it is up to the creatures with logic and choice to decide what they want to be part of.....lighting up someone's or something's life or darkening and destroying it....duality exists..
It is your choice what you are part of....with no excuses.

 

^^ agree

I believe that or shaping happens before we are born; through Epigenetics, which basically puts forth that our DNA is directly influenced through outside sources.

So with that, morality is directly influenced by our teachers as we grow both inside and outside the womb. Over the course of generations how we are taught and what we see will directly influence ourselves and that of our offspring. As much as we try to mold them ethically and morally, they will always be a product of our time in the womb and through growth and will carry those traits.

There was a story about a dog that was a regular in a lab setting; learned tricks and the like. He eventually died so they decided to clone him. They did so a few times. Some died due to complications. Eventually the clone started to do the same tricks acted the same and carried untaught traits as the original dog did and as though he was doing them for years. The Scientist eventually concluded that the dog was already aware of the tricks and traits of the original dog because it was already programmed into his DNA.

Our morals are already ingrained in us, it just depends on our genetics as to whether we are strong morally and ethically or we are easily destined for the lure of immorality.

The bible is far from being a list of morally ethical ideas. We ban books like Huck Finn and The grapes of Wrath due to their contents of one generation that conflict to our own current times. So should be said of the Bible; use it for what is but do not succumb it to a moral pedestal.

 

Religion is more about twisting morality and excusing immoral behaviour, vicarious redemption, forgiveness, drinking blood, rejecting reality... all that fun stuff.

Because human survival is a two sided coin. We developed caring and empathetic feelings because we are a social species who depend on each other for survival. At the same time we are predators that kill to survive. Killing your neighbours for their resources is sometimes good for your bloodline. Brainwashing your whole community that your neighbours are EVIL monsters who God hates, makes it so much easier.

 

I agree completely. It would seem that would place both of us in a minority however. In my own personal experience with Christianity I would have to say the majority of the Christians I have spoken to engage in this sort of Biblical cherry picking. In fact I'm not sure I've ever met a Christian who doesn't cherry pick the Bible. Secondly you and I seem to be in a minority for claiming that the position is untenable because when ever I bring this up to a Christian they are all to happy to inform me that I must be a weak minded sinner to think that. To me however the conclusion is inescapable.

 

I think it doesn't matter to them to see the bad in "Gods Word'. As you said they believe it is Gods word, straight from his mouth so to even doubt the word is Herecy. So if God says it; whether they believe it is right or wrong, it is ingrained to trust in the Lords word rather then our own thought on morals.

 

I was told that once by a Christian in quite a vehement way when I suggested that animal life is not inferior to human life, and that in fact animals are more perfect than humans in some respects.

I obviously can't say if all Christians believe it. But it might present a problem for some if they believe animals do have a soul and yet want to continue to kill them in large numbers and eat them. Or maybe not.

I just Googled 'do animals have souls' and evidently Pope Francis says they do, as did his predecessor Pope Paul. So maybe the Catholics do believe it.

If they do indeed have a soul, then given the general Christian doctrines about salvation, they have it easier than we do, because they would have to go to heaven automatically, as they don't have any kind of moral code, they just act out of instinct, as far as we can ascertain. So they have it easier in that respect than humans under a Christian belief that says they do have souls.

It would be interesting to know though how far this would go - for instance do fish have a soul? Do bacteria? I'm not posing this just to be facetious, it's an interesting question. My view is that soul is omnipresent, but only humans have the possibility to become aware of it.

 

Living with 4 cats, 5 dogs and 2 birds here, and many animals before, as well...i can with certainty say they do feel, are in tune with everything that goes on around them...to the point of even reading my mind and showing up somewhere before i even get there....feel sad, feel happy, angry, excited....etc......all the emotions we do....connect with each other and me very well.....a connection never broken.....don't always like everyone they meet that may show up here.....and show distrust which can alert me.....so i don't know what else soul would be......they feel everything we do.....even though they cannot communicate that in the same ways that we do.....

i have even witnessed some planning ahead with them many times...and manipulating, too...

 

I just posted your whole quote because I wanted to respond and I'm too lazy (and crazy) to use the touch pad to "erase" all but the last few lines.

I think animals that are loved and show love, as well as those that are horribly abused have an essence or energy that continues on. I could use the word soul for lack of a better word. As far as animal owners go, I would bet there are more of us that think their fur babies are waiting on the rainbow bridge than not.

A number of my passed animals have visited me in dreams; yet they never appeared when I sought that out, or "tried" to dream of one of them. (Yes, I have tried that!) Without exception, I always felt comforted, as well as I felt they were telling me they were alright. Of course this doesn't mean anything (to many people) but I have known others speak of this.

As far as cows and fish and chickens or bacteria, I can't answer...I don't have any hard and fast opinion. I do think for there to be a soul or energy that continues after flesh death, I think there would need to be an active thinking process that involves emotions other than survival (I hope that makes sense) and the ability to feel something other than I'm hungry.

I rather doubt bacteria fall in the same category as flesh and blood animals; but, of course I could be wrong.

Edit: I said "animal owners" but I really feel we are just their custodians, and it is our duty that if we accept the responsibility to care for an animal...it is our solemn duty to the best we can by those animals that are entrusted to us.