What's The Real Deal With Buddhism And Reincarnation?

Discussion in 'Buddhism' started by ChinaCatSunflower02, Nov 18, 2015.

  1. ChinaCatSunflower02

    ChinaCatSunflower02 Senior Member

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    I know that it is to do with what branch of Buddhism that you are following with whether Reincarnation is believed in or not, but how can any Buddhist believe in Reincarnation and yet also not believe that there is a Soul?
     
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  2. hipjon

    hipjon Members

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    My understanding, which has been heavily influenced by the writings and recordings of Alan Watts, is that the Universe is an indivisible whole which experiences itself through every living being, however partially, so It is what reincarnates over and over. With that said, there may be subtle energies or various forms of patterning which do somehow leave the body at death and sooner or later hook up with another body, so It could have the experience of a lifetime, then death, then possibly something in some space after death, and then another lifetime which bears some similarity to, and in some way is a continuation of, the one before. We could give any name to those subtle energies but they are waves of the Universe, like everything else. Enlightenment is then realizing, experientially, that you are more than just those energies, which we experience as thoughts and feelings, the entire ocean as opposed to the wave.

    Make any sense?
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Buddhists don't believe in Reincarnation....we covered this.
     
  4. ChinaCatSunflower02

    ChinaCatSunflower02 Senior Member

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    Just renaming it as Rebirth doesn't mean it's not still Reincarnation.
     
  5. Bud D

    Bud D Member

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    What's the debate?

    Buddhist are probably simply opposed to that there is an afterlife. I for one believe in spiritual worlds/communities and purpose/karma.

    Buddhist simply want to get to the enlightenment? Isn't the destination the journey?
     
  6. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

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    Tibetan Buddhists do.
     
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  7. Wizardofodd

    Wizardofodd Senior Member

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    Guess whatever you want. Maybe you're right, maybe not. You'll find out soon enough.
     
  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Tibet is complicated.
    I must do further research so that I may clarify in my mind exactly what they are saying in relation to reincarnation and rebirth.
    But let me present the following quote from the Dali Lama which points out that there is a not a single self which "reincarnates". I am using quotes around reincarnates because the word often appears to be used indiscriminately with rebirth.

    Notice the use of the term "Mind Steam" not self, the ability to manifest in thousands of bodies simultaneously, the ability to manifest before death, and karmic, prayer, blessing, and appointment emanations. Also notice that "someone else" may be recognized as an emanation of a particular Lama and that a particular Lama may have more than one simultaneous "reincarnation".

    All this and the fact that there is no self in Buddhism points, in my mind, to the term reincarnation not being understood correctly in relation to Western ideas of a soul.

    But I'll get back to this later....
     
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  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Let me try an analogy.

    In Buddhism there is no inherent self. The self is conditional, it relies on the five aggregates: material form, feelings, perception, volition, and sensory consciousness.
    When the five conditions are met, a self appears. The self is likened to a chariot. The chariot is not permanent and has no inherent existence. It is made of wheels, body, axle, and tongue. Remove any of those items and you no longer have a chariot.

    Now, as the self is an aggregate of different conditions each condition in turn is related to the sum condition of reality as a whole. No one aggregate can exist on its own. It too must be seen in relation to the rest of the universe. Everything is interrelated, nothing exists on its own.

    So the self, and its aggregates do not exist inherently on their own in a void, they exist in concert with the "background" or the rest of reality.

    Now for the analogy:
    Let's assume that each aggregate exists at a certain energy level, for the sake of the analogy. Look on them as radio waves of a particular frequency. Each frequency a separate note. As the different frequencies must exist and be transmitted somewhere, so too the aggregates of the self.
    Now when the conditions are right, the frequencies come together and form a noise or a song. Let's assume they form a song for clarity. All the aggregates are the same, but as they flow and join in different combinations in time, different songs emerge. The different songs I would compare to different selves.

    When the conditions for the combinations allowing a certain song no longer exist, the song is broken up, or stops. But the different notes continue on to reform at another time, in another order, thus producing a new and different song, or self.

    There is no song that dies and then is reincarnated. Each new song is unique, but it is made of the same basic notes. This is rebirth. Old songs die, new songs are reborn.

    Now, as to Tibet, or karma and the influence of one song upon another.
    As the old songs die, the notes continue on but they were influenced by the past song, some notes may have become longer, some shorter, some many have changed pitch or tempo, and some may have gone up or down a key. When a new song is formed from these influenced notes we may be able to listen to it and say, why that song sounds like an old song I heard last year that is no longer around; it has been influence by the old song and yet is a new song.

    So too the aggregates of an old self may continue on to reform into a new self which is different from the old, but related to it. And looking back we can say why I see a trend where a rock and roll song is entirely new but it owes its existence to influences from specific country and blues songs.

    That's rebirth and that explains the Dali Lama's "rebirths".
    Reincarnations would be the same song reappearing over and over again.

    So that's off the top of my head anyway.......
    I need to work on it some more.
     
  10. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

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    Interesting side note; You guys see that Castaneda shit I posted in the consciousness wars thread? Well, I've got a Brother who has been heavily involved with Tibetan Buddhism, I mean not just studying but actually hanging out with Rinpoche's and Nuns...so he tells me recently, more and more he's seeing in his studys where Castaneda stole the entire 'Naugalism' concept, practically word for word in some cases (translated obviously), from the ancient Tibetan scriptures. Casteneda might be a plagiarist, but the message remains the same. In all forms of Buddhism there is the core concept of erasing the self, or the concept of the self and to settle the mind to see through it's illusions. To give up ambition and pride, achievement and goals, etc, all the things our everyday mind and indeed pop culture tells us are good things... In Castaneda series, Don Juan tells Carlos there's nothing we can do about the predator that has taken over our minds...or actually has taken siege by giving us their minds, so the only chance we have is through certain techniques to practice a complete silencing of the mind "stopping internal dialogue". Since the 'predator' is after our emotional energy, it squeezes us by projecting things in our minds that will cause high emotion, weather it be elation or violence or anything in between. The idea is that if we practice emptying the mind and keep increasing the time we can keep it empty, after many years or perhaps a lifetime of prolonged effort, it will begin to deny sustenance to the predator and it will little by little get frustrated and eventually leave you alone forever. Nirvana, baby!


    Did the Ancient Tibetan (and Taoist, I suspect) masters know about the predator, but simply could not speak of it, for obvious reasons?

    Food for thought

    edit; also parallels with Gnostic writings
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienciareal/esp_donjuan13.htm
     
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  11. Chodpa

    Chodpa Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

    there's lots of schools of buddhism and the theravadists hold to the notion of the human, any sentient being, is made up of aggregates - which dissolve upon death - the forces which gave rise to those aggregates are as based in 'dependent origination' - or the wholeness of life as ongoing and so the aggregates will continue due to karma

    the theme of dependent origination is where buddhists mistakenly think that eschewing desire is the root to nirvana - but in fact the four pillars or four noble truths do not specifically mention desire as any root cause for nirvana or lack thereof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda

    some schools like cintimani or mind only consider there to be a subtle repository which holds karmic residue which rebirths

    tibetan buddhists consider along the lines of mahayana buddhist with stream enterer to an unheard of 15th bhumi beyond the mahayanists where one can have the jalu or body of light and live in an afterlife benefitting beings throughout many universes and planes

    in general if you spent much time in a good form of meditation and in retreats as well as living practically then ones definitely defined self stops holding precident and one starts to feel more 'one,' more unchanging, more vast, less obscured by changing values - this is when the aggregates stop developing as vritti (habit) or samsara (ongoing identification) - at that time it is more difficult to reincarnate because reincarnation depends (as based in dependent origination) on desire and if desire has little specificity then there is not really any place to go to

    this was an oversimplification

    a deep meditation of calm abiding can explain better than words - if your future womb is the transcendent then most likely you will be reborn one with the substratum of existance

    on the other hand if you're a rank materialist your agggregates can be easily subsumed by any common person and so an individual personality in a new existance will be unlikely
     
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  12. deepblue897

    deepblue897 Member

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    buddhists believe in reincarnation, but their aim is not to reincarnate.. to come back again to this world is not their goal.. they want to be enlightened and become a buddha...
     
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  13. Piobaire

    Piobaire Village Idiot

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    If you believe in reincarnation, then I would suggest that you follow the Noble Eightfold Path, as it accrues spiritual merit leading to an auspicious rebirth.
    If you do not believe in reincarnation, then I would suggest that you follow the Noble Eightfold Path; as it demonstrably ameliorates suffering in this life.
     
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