What draws you to libertarianism?

Discussion in 'Libertarian' started by Red Fox VII, Jul 27, 2014.

  1. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    The Libertarian emphasis on personal liberty is fine to an extent, but it also constitutes a war on the environment, because the only way to protect the environment is strict government regulation.
     
  2. LetLovinTakeHold

    LetLovinTakeHold Cuz it will if you let it

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    I disagree. Sometimes strict government regulations have an adverse effect on the environment.

    I agree that the most popular environmental policies among Libertarians wouldn't be good for the environment. But there are ways to go about it without putting blind faith into a corrupt government.

    Something that a lot of people seem not to comprehend though, is the power of a multiple party government. If a Libertarian is elected to government, he/she cannot just go and change everything according to their ideas.
     
  3. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    You will never convince unless you show me how Libertarianism is compatible with protecting the environment. Your argument so far is very weak.
     
  4. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

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    And neither can any other individual "elected to govornment" There's a process, and you do have a say. It's called civics, they used to teach it in highschool.

    http://www.shmoop.com/civics/
     
  5. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Allow me to rephrase: I'm content with what I have, and I don't have an envy/jealousy complex over those who are wealthier than I.

    This goes back to my earlier point. Should selective people be entitled to subsidized luxuries to compensate for their victim complex?

    How about regulations that favor corporations? There's probably more of those put in place that are simply masquerading as advantages for the public. Those very same regulations that advantage the wealth of those who lobbied for and wrote those said regulations.

    To me, jingoism means belligerent foreign policies that devastate the world in the name of blind nationalism. Libertairanism hasn't started war or genocide, unlike many other isms.

    Yeah there will never be a 100% pure free market. I think it's because too many lawmakers get bribed to assist and bail-out certain groups who can pay them off. But society can get pretty darn close to it.
     
  6. AceK

    AceK Scientia Potentia Est

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    more and more laws get written, big corporations get to vote with their bank accounts which bills get passed, and whether they are favorable to certain groups, companies, or industries. eventually you have to wonder how many more laws can be written, and exactly who would be able to comply with all of these regulations? could you comply with all of these law? do you even know about all of them? how are you to know? would you be able to afford the various lawyers required to comply?

    i just know we need something new .. the two main parties we have continuously screw things up.
     
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  7. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Only, because one party keeps blocking the other....into total eclipse dom.
     
  8. LetLovinTakeHold

    LetLovinTakeHold Cuz it will if you let it

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    Sunfighter,

    I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone else. And haven't presented any argument. This isn't the place to do so
     
  9. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    letlovin


    Well as I keep saying there are many shades of right wing libertarianism. But most seem opposed to taxes, regulations and public spending.

    Lefties like me believe that after decriminalisation the drug trade would be taxed and regulated (as alcohol is) and public money would be used to fund healthcare, treatment and education etc.

    How would you go about it?



    You might disagree but you and other right wing libertarian don’t seem able to refute it

    I mean as seems to have been shown many of the ideas promoted by right wing libertarians would seem to be detrimental to the common good, while seemingly serving the interests of wealth.

    Just disagreeing doesn’t make that assessment go away.



    I haven’t really seen that side of right wing libertarians on the site – they often seem ideologically committed to their ideas even when they are unable to defend them from criticism.

    And as has been shown the main ‘liberty’ right wing libertarians seem to be aiming for is the freedom for wealth to exploit people, resources and the system to the detriment of all but it’s self (cutting environmental regulations, reducing or stopping welfare etc)



    The question posed by the thread is ‘What draws you to libertarianism?’ and I’m interested to understand that as well - since right wing libertarianism ideas (which seems the variety most expressed and promoted on the forum) don’t seem able to stand up to criticism.

    Why would someone be drawn toward what seems like a flawed philosophy?
     
  10. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Letlovin


    So we should just have blind faith in ‘the market’, which has often been shown to be corrupt and corruptible (think of all the banks being fined by government regulators for manipulation of the market, the companies fined by government regulators for pollution etc )

    And what evidence have you of government corruption and why have you not gone to the police with it?



    I think the US would befit from another political party but I think it would suffer if that party was just another faction of the right wing, all you would have is right of centre Democrats, further right Republicans and very right Libertarians.

    The US really needs something pulling from the left.



    Many right wing libertarians have presented their arguments (including you) the problem is that they don’t seem to stand up well to criticism, is that why you seem to be trying to back out of debate?

    As I say I’m interested in trying to work out why people are drawn to these seemingly flawed ideas
     
  11. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    [SIZE=12pt]6-eyes [/SIZE]


    [SIZE=12pt]What point, where – is it in another thread? [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]What people?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]What subsidized luxuries?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]What do you mean by ‘victim complex’?[/SIZE]



    This doesn’t seem to answer my question, what is your opinion of - policies that advantage wealth over the majority, like tax regimes that favour wealth, or deregulation that advantages corporations, or systems that assist the possibility of exploitation, as right wing libertarian ideas often seem to promote?

    [SIZE=12pt]Also I’m unsure what you are trying to say in your reply are you calling for deregulation? If so of what? [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=10pt]The argument that we need more ‘free market’ is one I’ve heard a lot but it doesn’t seem to stand up the first steps toward ‘free market’ policies (tax cuts, deregulation or non regulation) have just ended up strengthening the power and influence of wealth increasing the likelihood that wealth can then corrupt the system to its own interests. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=10pt]To then argue that what is needed to correct this problem is to have even more ‘free market’ policies once more increasing the power and influence of wealth so it can corrupt the system even more just seems like madness. [/SIZE]
     
  12. Still Kicking

    Still Kicking Members

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    You might find this argument interesting. http://www.lp.org/issues/environment
    Granted, a libertarian government will probably always just be a wish for some of us, since most people seem to need handlers of some sort to get by in life. (Not saying you, specifically, but it seems everyone "wants the government to do something about everything)

    Libertarianism is based on the proposition that each and every person is responsible for themselves, and their actions. (Obviously handicapped individuals are a different matter) If a person pollutes what is considered either public or privately owned property in some manner, then the affected parties would have recourse to sue in court to rectify the situation, just as they do now. In a libertarian system, the offender would not have any loopholes to escape their obligations in this regard as they do now. They wouldn't be allowed to say, form a corporation, do a bunch of damage, put whatever profits they made into another corporation, fold the first one, and escape responsibility for what they have done. The premise is that having to actually answer for their crimes would deter this sort of activity to the point that no one would want to willingly take the chance on getting caught. Even accidental damage would require restitution in the form of repairing the damage, or similar.
     
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  13. Still Kicking

    Still Kicking Members

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    This may answer some of your questions: The CATO organization is a good resource for answers regarding libertarian values. As with everything, there is no guarantee that a libertarian government would work. Mostly, those of us who espouse a libertarian government are drawn to it as it offers a change from what we have now, a very intrusive government that has become more and more corrupt as the politicians do more to line their own pockets than worry about the people who struggle to live under the never ending avalanche of laws, rules, and regulations that continue to spew forth from every level of government in the hopes that all the tinkering will maybe make things better. At least with libertarianism, accountability would be one of the biggest benefits, not just for government, but for each and every person. Would it work? Who knows. It is safe to say, however, that what we see of the various types of governments throughout the world, that the ones that work best are the ones that afford the most liberties for their peoples.
     
  14. Still Kicking

    Still Kicking Members

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    I think the free market issue would work due to everyone having to be personally responsible for what they do. You wouldn't be able to screw others over and then hide behind a corporate veil. In a free market system, wages would be set by what an employer would be willing to pay for quality help. A cheap employer would get cheap help, probably suffer from it, and eventually go under. A lazy employee would have trouble finding work, and since there would be no welfare system, would have to learn to do better, or starve.
    It sounds cruel, but the current welfare system actually encourages people to be on it, and eliminating it would affect people who truly need help. The problem now though, is that families don't so enough to help each other out, or encourage each other to greater efforts. People who are too lazy to work would confront the concept of personal responsibility in a big way.
    On welfare and poverty: http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare, http://www.lpbexar.org/content/do-libertarians-not-believe-social-welfare, http://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income
    In a libertarian system, the needy would be taken care of on a local level, instead of at the state or federal. There area already numerous organizations that exist to help needy people, churches, etc. Government "gimme" programs are not efficient at all since so much waste is generated by the bureaucracies that are created to run them, and more goes to run the programs than actually gets to the people in need of the help. It seems like it would be much more efficient if handled at a local level, with neighbors and families helping each other out.
    The welfare thing kind of ties in with the free market thing, is why I included that.
    There is no one good answer in regards how humanity should interact for the benefit of all, but I think it is safe to say what is being done now doesn't work well at all, and a libertarian perspective is a good alternative. I don't think any libertarian minded people is have ever known would not entertain some sort of modified welfare system for the needy, just so long as they are truly needy and not just scamming a corrupt system.
    The free market system proposed by libertarians is a self regulating one where everyone is able to negotiate with others to reach a satisfactory deal. No regulation is needed other than an honest and reasonably priced judicial system for resolving conflicts. If people don't want to pay 800.00 for toilet seats, then they would find alternatives, like they used to, and toilet seat makers would adjust their prices to an amount reasonable for consumers or go out of business. The system would keep prices at a satisfactory level, and wages would stay reasonable also. Employers would not be able to cheat on wages or pay unreasonably low wages or no one would work for them, or at least they would not get very competent help.
    There would be no corporate bail outs. If a firm is unable to operate profitably it would fail. If there was a need for the service or product it provided, a more competent person or group would step in and make it work. In the current system, tax dollars we are forced to pay under threat of violence are used to pay incompetent business people to stay incompetent. Does that work?
     
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  15. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    Yes, I've heard this argument before, but it seems to fall apart because it's based on the idea that a poor person could successfully sue a rich corporation for pollution. This happens once in a blue moon (Erin Brockovich), but the rich corporation will have its team of high-powered lawyers arrayed against a poor person who can't afford even one decent lawyer. Will Libertarianism enforce the idea of everyone having equal representation in court? I don't think so, because that would be government interference, right? The rich polluters almost always win.
     
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  16. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Probable mind set=1840. Mississipi, Alabama, et al= Never mind who we work, how we work them, how they're treated. We'll be handling this locally.

    None of it works. Libertarianism, communism, democracy, socialism--you name it. Corruption eventually fucks them all. We've seen it. We're living it. Humans don't seem to have sense enough to keep from relying on the tried and true failures of governing as they appear and reappear throughout history. Those who have seeked to have power and privelege are of a type. Always thusly manifested. We, of the masses merely to do the best we can under somewhat equatable (if we're lucky) or absolutely horrendous (unlucky) types of governments that have been set up by consent (lucky) or by force (unlucky). Not much differant than 100, 500, or a thousand years ago. Just shinier shit to play with now. Provided by= the usual.
    The whole scheme should change. But how?? And when?? Or is everything unfolding as exactly as it should?? Just remember: BUY MORE. BUY MORE NOW.
     
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  17. Still Kicking

    Still Kicking Members

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    It can't fall apart yet as it hasn't been tried. The current system obviously fails because it has done so many times. This link: http://www.lp.org/the-libertarian-partys-solution-to-americas-epidemic-of-violent-crime, may help explain it better than me. You have to go down a bit to get to the justice part. This is the Libertarian Party line anyway. I think it is a fairly clear representation of how it could work.
    Obviously there is no system that could satisfy everyone. At least the libertarian way would make sure the victim was made as whole as possible. I prefer the system as put forward by some anarchists myself, which is similar, but that is another issue.
    Libertarianism isn't totally about no government interference, it works towards sensible government that is not intrusive, desires accountability from everyone, regardless of how large your bank account is, and seeks to assure any victims receive compensation commensurate with the damage. One conversation I remember having years ago with a local libertarian party was that this could include seizing the assets of the damaging party in order to make the victim whole, no high dollar lawyers using loopholes to protect assets, etc. If you are convicted, you will pay, period, is pretty much the view on that.
     
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  18. Still Kicking

    Still Kicking Members

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    Any system is only as good as the people behind it. Right now apathy rules in this country, which is why things are so far in the toilet. At least in a libertarian system people would have to take responsibility for themselves, which would pretty much wake people up. And we don't know if a libertarian system wouldn't work or not since it has not been tried. At least it would be an attempt at something better than the BS we have no.
     
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  19. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    So far, there has never been a Libertarian government anywhere in the world, right? Do you think there ever will be?
     
  20. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    I just read this and what I found interesting is that a top thinker in the Libertarian Party could miss the point so badly. Instead of talking about how the environment could be protected, she just put forth a lot of anti-government rhetoric as if reducing the size of government would magically solve the problem.

    It seems to me that if you want to protect the environment, then protect the environment. Don't rely on magical thinking.
     
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