The Reality Of Pure Socialism

Discussion in 'Socialism' started by Motion, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. Motion

    Motion Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,255
    Likes Received:
    114
    Here's what has happened with the Kibbutz in Israel. Isn't this system the closest thing to a pure socialist system?


     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  2. Motion

    Motion Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,255
    Likes Received:
    114
    Seems like eventually these Kibbutzims started having some of the same issues other socialist systems started to have. Too many people didn't care for being paid the same regardless of how much they worked and contributed. This is one reason there will be wage differences among workers. Trying to make everyone equal regardless of talents and thrive can be more problematic than many socialist proponents realized.

    Kibbutzim drop socialism to survive | Marketplace.org
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. Summerhill

    Summerhill Member

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    1
    +
    Motion makes a valid point. Human nature & its failings undermines the best of inten:)sions & all political 'systems . As a Socialist my only reply can be that a pure Socialist society has never been achieved,for all sorts of reasons but that a key aim is 'Selfless-ness' within the socialist group or society. This idea is encapsulated in the slogan "From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs"!
    Its a common mistake to believe that Socialism is not about the Individual, it is, as it is in any other political system if it is to be successful.
     
  4. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

    Messages:
    4,602
    Likes Received:
    998
    Randian babble doth not make good slogan. :bobby:
     
  5. Summerhill

    Summerhill Member

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    1
    Nor silly quips without an intelligent explanation ! Gongshaman
     
  6. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

    Messages:
    4,602
    Likes Received:
    998
    sorry, as much as I agree with what you're saying, the phrase bothers me, and I believe that was Ayn Rands intention when she constructed it.
    (please correct me if she's not the original author)

    thats all
     
  7. Summerhill

    Summerhill Member

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    1
    No worries my friend . You are better read than me-I didnt who Ayn Rands was!
     
  8. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    34
    Randian babble? Just who is that quote being attributed to?

    In 'Critique of the Goetha Programme' - 1875, Karl Marx, "In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! But there are others, predating Marx, who had made essentially the same statement, including Louis Blanc in his 1839 'L'Organisation du travail'.
     
  9. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ayn Rand is the author of 'Atlas Shrugged' in which she made an effort in refuting the slogan popularized by Karl Marx.

    Actually as socialism is usually seen as the 'transitional' stage on the way to utopian communism "From each according to his abilities to each according to his labors" might be more appropriately applied discussing socialism.
     
  10. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

    Messages:
    4,602
    Likes Received:
    998
    If true I stand corrected.
    however I'm not going to participate in a point-less debate about pure socialism
    the op has obviously moved on
     
  11. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    34
    Fair enough, I don't really see anything worth debating over anyway.
     
  12. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    22,493
    Likes Received:
    14,738
    Some day there will have to be some form of worldwide socialism in order to save the planet and it's inhabitants from "swallowing its own tail",as it were. Oh,I'll be dead and gone when it happens, for those with the power to affect the changes necessary to benefit sentient life on this little island in the cosmos will hang on and on as they are now, with specious reasons why it's so important that the few have much while the many have little. Of course,chaos will ensue beforehand and blood will be shed. No matter. It's what humans do. Tell 'em scratcho sent 'ya. And buy more--buy more now.
     
  13. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    22,493
    Likes Received:
    14,738
    hahahaha. Individual---I knew you'd come back and down thumb me for that one!! Doesn't matter--you get to keep "your stuff" for the forseeable future. Remember --we're just passing through this-here joke of a life.
     
  14. Fairlight

    Fairlight Banned

    Messages:
    5,915
    Likes Received:
    302
    Socialism should be like a a good party...Better not planned in advance.
     
  15. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    34
    And even better, not planned centrally.
     
  16. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    34
    Are you referring to your post shown below?

     
  17. unedited

    unedited Member

    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've got to ask, in reference to the OP, is any system 'pure'? As Summerhill pointed out, systems that sound great in theory all fall apart when they're applied in reality by human beings. Any 'system' of political and economic organisation is only really composed of the people who live within it. And as people, we all have individual views and opinions, which even if we're part of a defined group - the narrowest wing of the most ideologically rigid political movement or party - all the group still have different approaches, different attitudes, different understandings. (And what is SO MUCH worse, even as individuals our beliefs and knowledge is in constant flux - so we're not even consistent with ourself!)

    'Purity' is simply impossible, precisely because of our inherently 'messy' human natures. We are all walking paradoxes, full of both idealism and cynicism in constantly fluctuating proportions.

    "We should always treat each other with decency and compassion because the truth is we are all human. But we don't, because the truth is - we are all human."

    Is socialism just a useful ideal that we can aim for, move towards like a horizon, something that guides us... even as we know that it's impossible to ever truly reach it?

    (Oh... as a total non sequitur... if we're looking for a 'system' that wouldn't be corrupted by human fallibility - we probably have the technology to set up a supercomputer which could assign each person's employment fairly as well as distribute each person's share of the wealth fairly... but would we ever? It's like the thing about cars that could drive themselves - they had the technology for years, but it didn't take off because even though it would have been safer, cheaper, cleaner.... people prefer the 'freedom' to drive like idiots, even if it means they risk killing another person or being killed themselves...)

    :2thumbsup:
     
  18. Summerhill

    Summerhill Member

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    1
    scratcho & unedited nailed the issue,for me. More than at any time in history,local & Global issues are converging. Global Warming ,Globalisation of capital,scarcity of resources,economic migration,population issues and polution effect us all,whatever our political shade or special interest, we are,like it or not,a Planetary Community.

    Some form of planning,centralised planning too,is commonsensical if we as a civilised species are to survive. My opinion is that the most pragmatic model to achieve this is via some form of World Governance that draws on socialist principles,primarily but includes others,to manage us through whats ahead.

    There are SO many lessons to be learned from the experiences of the 20th Century that we could draw strength from & truelly progress. One of the most obvious is that ,whatever ones political shade,there is no dogma that works for all,that has all the answers. Dogmas,like Rules are there for the guildance of the wise,ect.

    As unedited points out,the flaw in any rigid political regime is human nature,it cannot be supressed or denied,by any ideology,its outlived 'em all!

    We know,surely by now,that the more unequal a society the more unstable it is and the more given to extremism & conflict. The primary aim of socialism is equality in fairness for all. Socialisms greatest weakness has been in its dogmatic fear of individualism & freedom of expression in all its forms. Yet,I'd suggest,that just as we cannot afford to be without the careful management of diminishing resources,nor can we face the future minus individual creativity & enterprise.

    My opinion is that we have to find ways in which those,apparent opposites,Capitalism & Socialism not merely coexist but complement each other for the common good. Examples from the 20th century exist,particularly post WWII,when such coexistence was created out of necessity,for security & growth and effectively kept the threat of exteremism at bay.

    Where we start is by releasing our obsessive grip on old dogmas & start listening to the other guy with an open mind.
     
  19. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    17
    Socialism is doomed ; the slacker is doomed. The brain drain begins. Soon , no one successful will be left to rape and sodomize. Guvmint coercion stops when successful workers fight the evil of taxation. Go suck a dry tit.
     
  20. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    22,493
    Likes Received:
    14,738
    000000000000--stop. You're scaring me! Changes? Oh, but everything is working so well now. I mean--the wars are over, the super rich are starting to see the inequity of the present system and are open to big changes, everyone is now treated with dignity and respect, no one is hungry, everyone is working, racism has been eliminated, our food is now pure, the water's tasty, pollution is totally under control, gangs have been eliminated, no one is being killed in the streets of our peaceful cities and one of the best parts--everyone has medical care. Please, please leave things alone. How can anyone possibly think we can do any better??
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice