Am I a Jew?

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by masada, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. masada

    masada Member

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    I've searched and have found no solid answer to this question, regarding my circumstances. My mother's, mother's, mother's mother (great-great grandmother) was a Jew. However, my great-grandmother apparently became a christian, and since then all of my family have been christians. I, myself, am an atheist.
    I've read that anyone born to a Jewish mother is a Jew, regardless of religion. So following that logic, if my great-great grandmother, up my mothers line, was a Jew, my great grandmother would be a Jew, my grandmother would be a Jew, my mother would be a Jew, and I would be a Jew. Would I be considered a Jew and subject to the Law of Return in Israel?
    Thanks in advance for your answers.
     
  2. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    If your mother is Jewish, I think so.
    Being an atheist, what makes you interested in the law of return?
    Why do you call yourself "masada", since all the Jews who committed suicide there were probably pious- or at least observant- Jews?
     
  3. masada

    masada Member

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    Because, though I am not religious, I am a Zionist and have always been interested in living there. And my name, I used to be into religion and saw the events at Masada as very admirable.
     
  4. deleted

    deleted Visitor

    look a penny..
     
  5. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Fist of the ZOG crusher!
     
  6. odonII

    odonII O

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    I thought we were all Jews whether we liked it or not. That's not a joke or an insult. It's just something I half heard on a programme about St Paul. So that people turned to God those that did not want to follow the practices of the the Jewish faith became Christians instead. But really you were a Jew.

    'Jesus of Nazareth is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God.'

    I may have gone mad. I dunno.
     
  7. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Nah that doesn't seem legit. Europe has more traditional values with the Hindu religions than the Middle East.
     
  8. odonII

    odonII O

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    That explains a lot.

    [​IMG]


    (ok, bad joke)

    I'm not quite following you : /
     
  9. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Well how can we be Jewish if our practices were surely Hindu?
    European culture idolizes religion. It's rampant through every city. From paganism to Christianity, Europe displays it in all of its glory. But there's nothing Jewish until the 1800, 1900s. With its advance, many European countries went in to an Anti Semitic stance.
    I'm just thinking if we were all Jewish, which sounds unlikely because they weren't the first civilization, then Homeland Europe would be.. Jewish.
     
  10. odonII

    odonII O

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    I guess the point is it is about following God, and also about how St Paul saw everybody else. If somebody said: 'God will judge you and send you to hell' - how could God send me to hell if I didn't believe in hell? It presumes whether I like it or not God has an influence on my life whether I like it or not. So it doesn't matter if I called myself an atheist, Hindu or anything else - I'm not. The Jewish faith is the originator and everything else is the poor mans version of it - to appease everybody. It's hard to explain what I mean, tbh.

    I did say I might have gone mad
     
  11. odonII

    odonII O

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    Separation with Judaism

    Christianity and Judaism
    Before Paul's conversion, Christianity was part of Second Temple Judaism, in other words a Jewish sect of the time period, so-called Jewish Christianity, and thus, from a modern perspective, Gentiles that wished to fully join the movement were expected to convert to Judaism, which likely meant submission to adult male circumcision if they hadn't been as an infant, following the dietary restrictions of kashrut, and more, see 613 mitzvot for details. During the time period, there were also "partial converts", such as gate proselytes and Godfearers. Paul insisted that faith in Christ (see also Faith or Faithfulness) was sufficient for salvation and that the Torah did not bind Gentiles, the later view also being held by most Jews. The success of Paul's efforts as "Apostle to the Gentiles" sped up the split between Christianity and mainstream Judaism, even though Paul wanted no such split himself. Without Paul's campaign against the legalists who opposed him, Christianity may have remained a dissenting sect within Judaism, for example see Noahidism.
    Paul's theology of the gospel accelerated the separation of the messianic sect of Christians from Judaism, a development contrary to Paul's own intent. He wrote that faith in Christ was alone decisive in salvation for Jews and Gentiles alike, making the schism between the followers of Christ and mainstream Jews inevitable and permanent.
    He successfully argued that Gentile converts did not need to follow Jewish customs, get circumcised, follow Jewish dietary restrictions, or (according to some interpretations) otherwise observe Mosaic law, see also Antinomianism in the New Testament and Abrogation of Old Covenant laws. Nevertheless, in his Epistle to the Romans he insisted on the positive value of the Law (see also Pauline passages opposing antinomianism), perhaps an attempt to demonstrate God's consistency and in Acts of the Apostles he personally circumcised Timothy, whose mother was Jewish Christian but whose father was Greek. Since Paul's time, the polemical contrast that he made between the old and the new way of salvation has usually been weakened, with an emphasis on smooth development (Supersessionism) rather than stark contrast (Marcionism). See also New Perspective on Paul
     
  12. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    There were many religious doctrines getting around well before the Jewish faith. From what I have read of Hittite and Sumerian doctrines, the Jewish religion is simply a copy of them.
    The only old religions that really differ from Sumerian is probably old Norse and Slavic paganism as well as the Americas but everything in the Middle East stems from the Sumerian doctrine, gods renamed, cities replaced, but the tales are almost identical. Even Greek Mythology is straight from Mesopotamian religion. From the number of gods, the families, their demise - all Akkadian tales retold for specific culture.

    Mind you, this is just my specific beliefs from what I have learned myself. I'm probably completely wrong. I don't care though. >.> I believe it!
     
  13. odonII

    odonII O

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    You probably are right. This being the latest incarnation of us all being the same, perhaps. I dunno. It makes my brain hurt.
     
  14. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Well all women are meant to stem from the same genetic material/mother, I'm pretty sure she's black too. But if it's true then I believe some beautiful creamy skin Goddess is my mother, not a Jew.. My family would be rolling over in their graves if I accepted that. lol.
     
  15. odonII

    odonII O

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    :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    How does anyone know who or what they "ARE"? You pretty much ARE whatever --whomever is directly resposible for your initial pragramming tells you you "ARE", which usually means parents,but could be anyone that is in charge of inculcating basic knowledge to a recently arrived being. Human religious constructs (or any other) -determine who and how a little,dependant being will view his/her existence relative to the world around them as they mature. Free will begins early in life and eventually,with real world experience,the original programmed constructs may be of no further use. So, if you want to be a Jew,just tell yourself you are. Or do otherwise. Isn't that good enough--to make your own decision now that you have matured??
     
  17. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    Yes, you are a jew.

    But, a bastard jew. The law is written that way for the opposite reason that islam is passed by the father: as victims of warfare and raiding, with rape and wife-taking, jews could make a legitimate claim that their children where jews, and tell their children this, and if all went well, keep judaism alive in their offspring.

    Islam is spread by the father, so that in raiding and terror-warfare full of rape, they could claim to have made a bunch of little muslims.

    But, as jews do tend to be real sticklers about who you marry, how you marry, that you strictly follow all codes, that you have had a bar-mitsfah and are learned in the right texts and doctrines, etc, you are nowhere near a jew, and can never really become one.

    The sects that take converts (reform jews?) and such might consider you a full-fledged jew, I suppose, as ethnic as anyone else.... but the sticklers never will, never would, etc. Once you choose to stop being a jew, you're not a jew, and it's hard for your family to get around it, it's not the same as NEEDING to be a jew but having been born of an invading father. Now, if you studied to be a jew, married a jew (they'd only marry you to another bastard jew) then maybe you'd have full fledged accepted jewish kids.

    I think hasidic jews do expect their kids to go be wild, calm down, and come back. But I think being wild means that wild swing music.... and psychedelic drugs, or so I've read.

    As far as zionism, I think they'd see you as just about as jewish as the palestinians.
     
  18. la Principessa

    la Principessa Old School HF Member

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    I studied religions for a long time, Judaism especially. I considered converting too.

    First, to answer the OP's question, technically yes you are a Jew.
    Second, Christianity and Judaism are very similar. Most Christians were Jews to begin with. I to this day don't understand why anyone cares about going through with conversion when their ancestors were probably Jews before they were Christians. If you want to be a Jew, then be. If not, then don't. It should be as simple as that.

    Whether it's your heritage or not is kind of moot if you're an atheist anyway.
     
  19. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    Fascinating. If perhaps you don't see the essence of Judaism/being a Jew in the religion(i.e. God), what do you see as its essence?- I mean you must detect something pretty good about 'it' if you are willing to live as an atheist in the "country" and with the people who brought the knowledge of the one true God into the world.
     
  20. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    Judaism is a religion of law, and you would have to plead your case to a beit dinn.

    With a century of non practice, you'd likely need to have a reason of conversion, and some desire to raise your kids Jewishly.
     

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