Taking the less traveled road in south america

Discussion in 'Latin America' started by Oko, May 28, 2012.

  1. Oko

    Oko Member

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    Good evening,

    At 19 years old, i'm almost done with high school- just a couple more exams. Next year, instead of going to university, I've decided to take a gap year. Around 4 months of earning money in my hometown, and then I'm off. I'm planing to buy a ticket to Bogota (colombia, got some friends there). Just a one-way ticket- and that's what my trip will be all about: I've no plans and no prepared itinary. I want to go where the wind blows, bare feet and open-minded. It is as scary as exciting.
    However, I'm particulary interested in living for a while in a hippie community which grows its own food, lives at its own pace, etc...
    So I'd like to know if you have advices, places to go, communities to visit,etc...because it would be so nice to meet people who believe in the same things than I believe in : we're all one, one mankind, one Nature, one earth.
     
  2. waterbearer

    waterbearer Guest

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    Hi, I just read your response to my post, it seems as if you are about to start a new journey yourself as well. Very cool. I really hope your journey is filled with wonder and excitement! I've always wanted to buy a 1 way ticket and just leave. That would be fun!
     
  3. Oko

    Oko Member

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    Thanks! I have to admit I'm kind of scared. I'm a woman, and society has taught me to fear strangers - and there's also some of primitive fear of the unknown in it. I've never been on a long trip alone, but I know I'm made to travel - I feel it, almost like in my bones.
    Anyway, I'm just as interested by community life as you. What attracts you in it?
     
  4. waterbearer

    waterbearer Guest

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    I don't blame you, the world can be scary, but it can also be equally wonderful. It's funny you should say that, because I used to feel afraid of the unknown, until just a little while ago actually. I went through a pretty traumatic experience and it completely changed my view of life and pretty much eradicated my fear of the unknown. I'm tired of being afraid of things that I don't understand because I keep missing out on opportunities based purely on prejudice or simple fear, that I would have otherwise enjoyed. I think I am more of a home body, but I feel like I need to travel once in a while. I think the thing that attracts me to communal living is the fact that in standard society, you technically have to work just to be alive, and you ONLY work to live, not to grow. Almost all of the money earned from working goes to paying bills, while the rest is spent on entertainment or things that take your mind off of work until you have to go again. It's a never ending cycle that is preventing us from doing all the things we really want to do. I know it's possible to build things that don't break and are safe, but, as a society, we do not do that because the desire for profit creates a self centered model that prevents things like advancement and sustainability out of the hands of the people. I want to live in a society that allows me to create my own things ONCE, so I never have to worry about those things again. That way, I can travel, grow, learn and experience things as a human being, and not a stressed wage slave trying not to think about work on his/her day off. I also feel more at home in a natural setting and am tired of talking to people that don't seem to respect nature itself. So finding a nice quiet community of people that are at least somewhat similar to myself, free of work and money, sounds ideal. How about you?
     
  5. Oko

    Oko Member

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    If it is not a too personnal question, what experience made you change your mind about fear?Because I always said that I wouldnt subordinate my dreams to my fears, but truth is that, to a certain extent, my fears are paralyzing me. I'm particularly afraid of the dark: I know that there is more to reality than what I see, and it freaks me out because I have no control over it. I feel other presences and I imagine them...although I don't know if they "exist" or if they are just a product of my imagination. (PS: I've never been a "mystical" person, I'm interested in spirituality but I'm also very pragmatic about certain things. For example, I absolutly do not believe in an afterlife. It's the reason why it's very confusing for me to feel those things, because I accepted their existence only recently)

    I completetly agree with your vision on society: it's not a bad thing, but you're somehow compelled to be a slave of it due to its structure. However, i still believe that it can help you achieving goals - I, for instance, want to be a doctor. Going to university will make it possible. But how can someone play a role in society without being a slave of it? It's a question for which I don't have an answer.

    "you technically have to work just to be alive, and you ONLY work to live, not to grow. Almost all of the money earned from working goes to paying bills, while the rest is spent on entertainment or things that take your mind off of work until you have to go again". It's an interesting insight. Do you think that people realize it and choose to stay in this absurd situation, or do you think that they don't understand?

    I have to admit that I don't understand this sentence:"I want to live in a society that allows me to create my own things ONCE, so I never have to worry about those things again". What do you mean by "creating your own things once"?Nothing is created once for all, and unbreakable. Everything is a never-ending process: relationships, growing your own food, finding money to travel, learning, finding yourself, etc... I can hardly imagine something of any importance that would need to be created only once in a life-time.

    I feel more at home in Nature too - but I think that many persons (including me) are appealed by Nature but tend to underestimate the negative sides of the hippie/community way of life: you don't own anything, you have very little money (it sounds good, but it must be awful if you get sick, or severely injured, or pregnant), and it's, of course, less confortable. However, I think that everyone should try it, and then decide if they like it or not.
    Oh, and I really don't think that it is "free of work". Actually, it must be even more work than just going in an office from 9 to 5. It's just another kind of work.
     
  6. waterbearer

    waterbearer Guest

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    Not too personal at all, a number of things happened that helped me figure things out, but the thing that really did it was a massive house fire. I woke up to a fire just a few feet away from my bed and within an hour or so, the house and almost all of my stuff was gone. I had never experienced anything like that and I came so close to death that it changed me in some ways. As far as a presence in the night, I have never seen anything, but I don't disregard the possibility. I have taken a, nobody has any TANGIBLE proof, so why jump to conclusions, approach because if those kinds of things are real, they've been here all along and life will continue in the same way, if not, then there's nothing to worry about. Also, if they are real, they need to quit hiding and being so cryptic. It sounds like THEY are the ones that are afraid. lol. I don't really think I believe in an afterlife either, but who knows, maybe there is something similar or nothing at all, either way, I'm going to make the most of this existence. If some being wants to judge me for what I've done and tell me I did everything wrong, so I can't enter some kind of afterlife, fuck them, I don't want to be a part of a spiritual existence that has the power to stop the suffering here on earth or change things for the better but CHOOSES not to. That to me is a being that does not deserve any kind of respect anyway.

    I don't want to leave society completely either actually. I would rather live in a commune, but venture in to the city to get things I cant get myself, see friends/family or just have fun. I try to apply a balance to things, because, it seems in nature, everything wants to balance out, from subatomic particles to entire galaxies, matter and energy just seem to want to achieve a state of equilibrium. I view life in the same way, too much food, you die, not enough food, you die, just the right amount and you will be at the peak of health, same with most things. Love is the same, you see your partner constantly for years and years with out a break and you start to resent each other and argue, but if one of you goes on a trip or leaves for a while, when you are reunited, it's similar to a new relationship again. If you work too much without a vacation, you go crazy, if you do absolutely nothing for too long, you go stir crazy. Nearly everything is a balancing act, and communes/society are no different. Society's control is based solely around money, if you take money out of the equation by providing your own goods/services, you take control out of the hands of those at the top. If a bunch of people are living on a patch of land, they will pay taxes for that land, but it's 1 set of taxes for multiple people, instead of each person paying a similar amount separately. If you grow your own food, you take the power away there, same with water, power, etc. The more independent you make the people, the less control those at the top have. They provide EVERYTHING from food, to entertainment, to news, to water, to housing, to transportation, to jobs, and even the money we use. We provide NOTHING. We buy parts/ingredients/seeds/etc from stores to make/grow things, so we really didn't make anything original at all, we still payed society to provide the raw materials for us. Right now, if those at the top shut down all food production, there would be panic because people wouldn't be prepared or know what to do. I know that's not really likely, but that or something similar is technically possible with such dependence. Anyway, in simple terms, the more money taken out of the equation, the less control those who deal the money out have.

    As far as the "working just to stay alive" statement goes, I think people are too distracted by work, friends/family, emergencies, school, endless 24 hour entertainment, social media, bills, stress, debt, illness/injury, religion, "news", politics, replacing obsolete/broken things, maintenance, holidays, etc and are exhausted to even notice. if they do notice, they don't have the energy or the resources to do anything about it. Our system is designed to keep people as distracted as possible so people who know what's going on can slowly further their agenda. People argue with me about this because they have yet to really step back and look at the big picture. I realized this fact years ago when I was stuck in a stressful job and had been talking about working on this project I had been planning for years, but was always too tired or busy to work on. I finally realized that, I probably wouldn't work on those projects because they were too time and labor intensive for someone with a full time job, house payments, friend/family responsibilities, chores, errands, a garden, etc. Also, it seems we only have enough vacation days (1-2 weeks a year, if that) to keep us from going crazy and no more than that, in America at least. I started to realize that nearly everyone else had projects and dreams that they had talked about and fully expected to work on one day, but never did. I mean, people work until they retire in their late 60's, by then you've already passed over your body's most physically capable years. When you're a child you have to attend school that seems to get longer and longer, then you jump right into work or more school, then more work or promotions, then another job, etc. When do you get a couple of years to not work, not stress, not worry about money and just experience and enjoy life? Answer, you don't. It's as simple as that. I am a hard worker and I appreciate work that has a point, but work in this society simply exists to provide a source of income. We can technically automate so many more jobs than we do now, but we don't because those workers need money to buy things from the companies that produce those things, it's a virtual ecosystem and it is counter productive to natural life.

    The "create my own things once" statement was referring to our current item/material/technology/etc manufacturing systems only. Things are designed to fail and break after a certain amount of time in order to keep consumers purchasing new items. This keeps the economy going because, for money to have value, demand has to exist. However, we actually have the ability and technology to cleanly and safely make most things last well beyond 1 human life span. Things will break and fail eventually, because that is how matter and energy work, but repeated manufacturing, solely for the sake of money is wasteful and harmful. I worked in engineering and information technology and saw how some of the devices produced are electronically designed to fail after a certain amount of uses. Electronic components can be manufactured with ultra thin containment shells that weaken every time energy/chemical reactions interact them. If you do the math, you can find out what is needed, how much energy and how much time it would take to breach a certain amount of a certain material. Metal, plastic, glass, etc can be weakened or strengthened during manufacturing by certain methods. Basically, things break for a reason, when it's quite easy to make things last. We have composite materials for homes that can last for hundreds of years, but do we use them? Rarely, if at all, and the excuse is, "it's too expensive or scarce". Well, if we used a material once, we wouldn't have to continuously manufacture the same things and waste more resources/money/time in the long run, so that idea is almost completely false. Scarcity? Who knows if that is even true. Certain things are scarce, other things aren't, but we have no idea what REALLY is and isn't. We produce enough food for well over 7 billion people every day (9 -10 billion population worth), but a massive chunk of the world's population is starving, most known oil reserves were tested, mapped out and assessed long ago, yet the price goes up and down every year due to "conflicts" and other unprovable excuses, we sometimes burn diamonds to drive the price up when there is a big discovery, etc. So how can we trust people in control of any resource they profit off of, to give us the real information? We can't, that is why I want to build things myself that will last as long as possible so I don't waste materials and don't pollute the earth with unnecessary discarded waste. Example, I want to metal cast the strongest tool set possible, instead of buying these cheap tools that break and strip over and over again. I've seen a wrench from the late 1800's early 1900's that still works and is stronger than ANY tool I've ever owned. Most things can be created to last, which would cut down on consumption and environmental harm and leave more resources to be used for other things.

    Yeah, there are down sides to hippie communities and society, which is why I would want to live close enough to run to town or contact someone if there is an emergency. Illness and injury suck in those situations, but really, unless it's severe, it's possible to deal with it naturally. You are alive because your ancestors got sick, or were injured but had strong enough genes to survive on their own. There are natural antibiotics, like garlic, that actually work well against who knows how many diseases. Also, living outside of a massive population DRASTICALLY decreases your chances of getting sick. Injuries suck, but nature does provide natural things that can be used to clean wounds, take care of pain, protect wounds, and even prevent injuries/illness. Modern technology uses a lot of the same basic methods and ingredients we have used for thousands of years, just in a more sophisticated and direct way. Pregnancy would be the same really, you could purchase drugs for pain before hand if the need be and set up a clean birthing environment, the rest is up to you and your body, regardless of modern or primitive technology. Ownership is really unnecessary anyway, I was against the idea of abandoning it, but it actually is no longer necessary. If we manufactured things to last, we wouldn't need to replace them all the time, and if we didn't need to constantly replace things, there would be more material available, and that material could be used to created things that don't break and in sufficient quantities. Basically, if there was a library of electric guitars in every town, and you could freely go check out any guitar at any time, no one would need to steal a guitar ever again. Also, why own it, because if you go through periods of not playing, which every musician eventually does, you could return it so someone else can use it, and just go get another one when you want to. Sentimental value is something we have been taught. There might be scarce things, but we can share those things FAIRLY. Nobody uses everything 24 hours a day, so why not let someone else use it when you don't need it. People would have access to way more stuff in a society like that, which allow them to try things that they wouldn't be able to in this society. But what about the people that make those things, why would they work without getting paid, while others enjoy the things they work hard to make??? That argument is dumb because money isn't want drives people, it's what money can buy. You might manufacture guitars because that is what you like to do and are good at, but the people using those guitars do so in exchange for being mechanics, janitors, farmers, manufacturers of other items, etc. In that society, work is fairly shared while we strive to automate labor as much as possible, freeing humans to grow, learn, expand and create new things. Also, since stuff would be made to last, difficult labor would slow as time goes on. But wouldn't everyone just sit around and do nothing without incentive? lol, I seriously doubt it. People without money sit around because THEY HAVE NO MONEY!!! If you didn't have to work and had access to any thing you wanted, could go wherever you wanted, and basically do anything you wanted, would you just sit at home watching TV until you die of old age? I seriously doubt that. I would be exploring the planet, going to school and learning the things I WANT to learn and ENJOY learning, I would spend time with family and friends I rarely ever see, I would volunteer as much of time time to city maintenance and building projects as possible, I would see performances and world wonders and all kinds of things. There is no limit in a society such as that, there are limits on ours, even if you are wealthy. Anyway, basically the idea of work would change from something we hate with every fiber of our being, to something truly fulfilling that we would enjoy.

    Wow, just wrote a novel, lol. Hope that made sense, words are not always easy for me.
     
  7. Oko

    Oko Member

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    You really did wrote a novel ! But it's fine, I needed that. I need to read words that make sense, words that have been denied to me for a long time - most of the time, i have discussions with uncertain teenagers or I read insightful books. It's from one extreme to another. I would just advice you to be a bit more careful with punctuation, some sentences are very long (I don't mean to offense you, I know that my english is way worse, weak and probably full of mistakes. It's not my native language).


    A massive house fire? That was probably the less expected answer! Nevertheless, it seems like feeling so close to death woke you up. Maybe we need to feel death to be able to feel life, pain to be able to enjoy happiness, sickeness to appreciate health. Isn't it a bit sad?
    " if those kinds of things are real, they've been here all along and life will continue in the same way, if not, then there's nothing to worry about." I actually have never considered it that way. It fills me with hope, until I thought about that: if a parallel universe exists, and if it creates random connections with our world- at certain time and places, in certains circonstances, maybe it can hurt me. Because those "things","spirits" have not always been there, and they're not always the same ones. Just thinking about it gives me shivers.
    On the other hand, if this universe exists like ours, but just on a different "level", then it has always existed, and there is nothing to fear.
    Long story short, two theories exist, and i'm completly lost.


    "The "create my own things once" statement was referring to our current item/material/technology/etc manufacturing systems only. Things are designed to fail and break after a certain amount of time in order to keep consumers purchasing new items. This keeps the economy going because, for money to have value, demand has to exist. However, we actually have the ability and technology to cleanly and safely make most things last well beyond 1 human life span". OK, I now understand a little better. It's true that from the point of view of an (ecologist, if I may say) engineer, you must be very frustated that we program things to last as shortly as possible in order to earn money, while our world's ressources are barely enough to allow us to live in a sustainable system. I did not know that they sometimes burn diamonds in order to keep prices high, but I doesn't surprise me a bit. I've become cynical about geopolitic and economie in a very short time - two years or so. Youth shouldn't be cynical, it should be reserved to those who have lived, and seen, and experienced. We should have trust in our fellow humans, trust in the system, trust in our futur, in our power.

    If you live close to a city all the time, having the possibility to "escape", do you think you're really living the hippie experience? And in what money would you retreat to, if you have none? Maybe I'm a bit too extreme, but I think the hippie experience isolates you from the "normal" society. Having just wrote that, I wonder if it is true - and I sincerely hope it isn't.
    I like the way you present your plan for a sustainable society. I totally agree with you: people need to work. In a certain way, people love working. If the contrary was true, we would have never invented the technologies we can now enjoy: starting from wheel to computers. Simply, each one need to find the spot he's good at, and he enjoys - I think it's rare to find it in our system. You need money to live, so basically most of the people accept jobs that they don't hate. And they end up hating it, but still being thankful for having one. Now that I think about it, it's odd: "Thank you (god, the governement, walmart,etc...) for providing me a job, so that I can earn money to survive, and survive to go to work!".
    I really like the guitare library idea, but I still believe that the desire of possesion is very deeply rooten in our hearts.


    We both desire a ressourced-based economy and human-centered system (by human-centered, I do not mean individualistic, but allowing humans to survive (by respecting nature) and to fully develop (volunteering, studies, family, etc...)). We both know that it's an idea worth fighting about, but that it probably won't happen. So the question is : how can we live with those values in this world?
    I cannot accept to give up and try to "fit in" where I don't belong. I love studying, but I hate having a tight schedule. I hate shoes and common conversations. I hate pre-programmed distractions, like TV or a fully-planned trip. The more I think about it, the more I feel that something is wrong. It must be, because if not, it means that I am wrong.

    I'm sorry, I feel like I'm talking about my opinion a lot. I value your text and your ideas, that I have read with great interest. I'm just asking myself a lot questions - will that ever end?
     
  8. waterbearer

    waterbearer Guest

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    Yeah. I. do. use. long. sentences. sometimes. because. I. get. caught. up. in. what. I'm. trying. to. say. lol, I'm just messing around with you. I'll strive to employ better grammatical structure, from now on.

    I like the theory of multiple connected realities. I always kind of wondered if matter punches through space-time into an alternate reality when it enters a black hole. Maybe the big bang was a massive black hole in another reality that punched through to our side. The theory says, before the big bang, everything was extremely compact and black holes do seem to compact matter, so who knows.

    True, things could hurt you or not, but, I no longer deal in "can" and "can not" aka "possible" and "impossible". People say things are impossible, when they mean imPROBABLE. I deal in probability these days. Could a meteorite fall to earth and crush me? Of course. It is definitely possible. Impact craters exist all over the place on most planets in our solar system and small space rocks fall to earth all the time. Is it probable? I seriously doubt it. I apply the same theory to the super natural. I don't disregard any spiritual philosophy completely, but I do apply the laws of probability to them. Do I think Xenu flew to earth in airplane looking star ships, with hydrogen bombs, in order to blow our planet up and release our spirits? Not really, but do I have any proof that it's not true? No I do not. While I think it's about as close to impossible anything can get, I do understand that until there is Some kind of actual proof, no one really knows for sure. Why discount anything completely? While it might not be correct, thinking outside the box might somehow lead to correct answers. I don't know, that's just how I view things most of the time I guess. Just got a call, which means I have to go, but I will finish reading your post and responding later. I'm actually really enjoying this conversation! =)
     
  9. Oko

    Oko Member

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    I think I read in a scientific magazine that matter is transformed into light in black holes, and that they actually "shine"...i'm really far from being a specialist in physics/astronomy though.

    I really like your way of diffining things by "probable" or "improbable" rather than strict notions like "impossible"/"possible". Reality is far less rigid than we think. Of course, humans need values and things they can count on in order to build themselves. But should we? Everything is meant to change, one way or another. Building yourself is a non-sense, because your personality is multiple and always changing. However, are we able to live in a both physical and mental uncertainty?

    I ask a lot of questions...and I'm not sure I'm ever gonna get the answers.
     
  10. SiriusBlue

    SiriusBlue Member

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    I live in bogota.


    http://www.varsana.com/ hare krishna community, I think that's the closest thing you'll find to a hippie community, there are a lot like this.

    Places to go... hmm take note, if the wind blows to any of this places go with it

    San Agustin
    CaƱo Cristales
    Villa de Leyva
    Tayrona
    Eje Cafetero
    Capurgana
    Nevado del ruiz
    Llanos orientales
    Amazonas

    This places are very diferent from one another, people say here is like many contries in one, search for some pictures of this places you'll see why so many peps love this crazy corrupt rotting in war country.

    PD While you are in bogota or near I may show you around but if I were you I would leave the city as soon as I get off the plane
     
  11. Oko

    Oko Member

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    Thanks for your answer Siriusblue. I'll search all the places on the internet.
    People are advising me to go to so many places that I might as well buy a map of south america and put on small cross on each place. That way, I won't forget any.

    You don't seem to be appreciating Bogota...I was thinking about spending a few days there, in order to aclimate myself to Colombia before leaving the first and last big city I'll visit (I hope). As I already wrote, I'm more interested in countryside and communities.
     

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