Do you support child labor exploitation? Then buy Apple products

Yes to the above + beatings + suicides.

You may be new to the Internet, but that blue writing is called a link. You have to click it to get the content.

 

Also wtf is this union crap? The Chinese don't have access to unions that aren't government controlled as far as I'm aware.

 

I've been using the Internet for a decade or more. I've posted more links than you and I have had hot dinners. However, I post links to specific information and generally quote the parts that are relevant. I wouldn't post a link to :"Happy Chinese workers." Because it is lazy.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?um=1...e=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=vH91ULmYMuel0QWO0YGYAg

Trade Unions in China

 

You didn't respond to the beatings and suicides point. Try clicking the link. You'll see the overview of about 20 news sources backing up my claim.

Also, your link doesn't work for me but I googled china trade unions and found what I suspected. One trade union coalition, which has a monopoly on trade unionism in china, against which making competing unions is illegal. So as I said above, I'm not aware of unions in china not under government control.

 

Sorry. I was going to. Yes a No. of people working at certain apple affiliated companies killed themselves. From what I can gather - the Chinese society is very strict. Having employment and providing for family is very important. You have men who have lost their jobs going out on a daily basis pretending they are still working. When it becomes evident they do not have a job - they sometimes kill themselves. I would not say that suicide is a direct result of working for an Apple affiliate. I have not read anything about beatings at their sites.

The link works for me! It was only to suggest that links to the WWW without any context or specific info is useless. Nevermind.

Most unions in China are government controlled. If you want me to be more specific - just ask.

 

Enjoy your veggies and fruit. I've seen them as young as 5 or 6 picking them where I come from. Shit's made in other countries because of those pesky child labor laws here,which unions fought for. They are selectively enforced.

 

OdonII, here's a brief selection of reading material regarding, well, the electronics industry in China and Apple products.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...st-at-Apple-manufacturer-Foxconn-factory.html
http://blogs.computerworld.com/maci...le-suppliers-still-breaking-labor-laws-report
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/...and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/pdf/20110712.pdf
https://www.motherjones.com/files/clw_beyond_foxconn.pdf
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/pro/proshow-127.html

 

It really, really sucks when you start to delve into it and realize just how profoundly our society relies on exploitation to function, and how hard it is to avoid products/food that was produced without inhumane labor practices.

 

Your link took me to Google and from There I was able to find the info I needed. So there's a point made there but not the one you were trying.

I'm thinking, especially regarding the links BoR posted for you I'm just going to write you off as a true believer, became to think that every company in existence befits from the systematic exploitation of other human beings, other than Apple, the biggest tech company in the world, is completely delusional.

Unless you're arguing that the government run unions in China actually are designed to get the best possible outcome for Chinese workers and the workers are just 'very busy' and don't get many cigarette breaks, and aren't being systematically exploited. Which is IMPRESSIVELY delusional.

 

Mayor Salt: Thank You for being specific - I appreciate it.

I don't think Apple or Foxconn are perfect.
I do think they are the whipping boys for that particular sector.
Is some of the criticism fair? Yes and no.

It should be obvious labour rights campaigners are going to pick on the biggest companies, and never be truly satisfied with what the companies do or don't do for their workers.

Do people in the US and UK (for e.g) work 12 hour shifts, for six days a week, for min' wages, and have to sometimes work overtime and/or work for seven days a week just to get ahead? YES. I've been there myself.
Did the labour rights groups investigate the company I worked for? NO.
So I do think you have to acknowledge there is an element of hounding that goes on.
Especially when there is an undercurrent of resentment - due to outsourcing.

When I was working 'all hours god sends' just to make ends meat - did I suddenly decide to throw myself off the nearest building? No.
You have to ask yourself out of approx one million employees why a few did.
Imho, it is partly due to the fact some of the workers expected more.
Some dreamed that working for a prestigious company would give them riches beyond their wildest dreams - but the reality was very different.
It's also the case many were probably highly educated and their families expected they would be rich and be able to look after their families.
Clearly those expectations did not materialise.
The expectations of many Chinese families is greater than it is in other countries.
But you also see the same level of expectations in the UK and US.
Children who have studied hard, gone to University and got good grades - only to find they have no job (or a crap job) at the end of it (the 99%).
Do those children commit suicide? Yes, some do.

There are some truly awful companies all over the world.
Should we say that they are all treating their employees like slaves etc? Absolutely not.
It's unfair and devalues the people that truly are being used as slaves, and truly do work in appalling conditions.

Ofcourse Apple benefits from cheaper labour.
Ofcourse they prefer to outsource the work to companies that have staff that are little more than robots.
But to use some of the language that has been used here, and suggest the company does nothing to safeguard the employees is wrong.

As for Chinese Unions: It's another unfair perception they will do nothing for the workers. If you read some of the links and appreciate the diversity of the country and the various provinces these unions work in - you will see a lot of them DO work for the betterment of the workers, and have striven to improve working conditions. There are also emerging some 'independent' unions.
PlacidDingo, you can't seemingly go from barely knowing anything about the Unions to suddenly thinking you know everything.

It's shallow knowledge like that that produces threads like this and comments that you have made.

No offence intended. Just sayin'.

 

I'm sure some unions are sincere but as I've said the whole time, I don't know of any who aren't beholden to the government. If you've got something to back up the new independent unions, I'd be interested to read that.

Are you suggesting that conditions in Chinese factories are comparable to those in the UK?

 

I guess you have to inspect their labour laws and see how liberal and progressive they are (or not).
I don't think just because they are - to use your word 'beholden' to the government - they are going to be all bad.
I said there were emerging independent unions (or what will eventually know doubt become unions.)
Who do you think organises some of the strikes that occur?
Who do you think talks with managment when the official unions fail?

Some of them are.
Obviously not every single one.

 

Oh goodness.

So these independent unions you're telling me about, you have no proof they exist.

You think they will become unions despite the fact that competing unions are ILLEGAL.

You think the it's ok that a union is under obligation to the government, despite that fact that governments world over are often in conflict with unions.

You think theres not evidence that Foxconn who had employees sign guarantees that they wouldn't kill themselves because of high suicide numbers and have been in media previously for other controversies, are themselves providing unacceptable conditions, and the suicides can be attributed to disappointed Chinese workers who were expecting that making iPhones would make them rich?

 

As great as wikipedia is, it doesn't always provide the complete context.
Reading: "ACFTU has a monopoly on trade unionizing in China and creation of competing unions is illegal." - does not give the full picture
If you read the article: http://www.economist.com/node/11848496?story_id=11848496
It suggests the Unions are 'entwined' with the provincial/government(s)
...and that there are 'in-house workers' groups'.
Could these 'in-house workers' groups' be deemed legitimate 'unions' - perhaps not.
But isn't that how many unions start off?
- that's why I said 'emerging'.
It's also evident there are 'workers rights groups' in China - too.
Not 'unions'? Ok, you got me.


What do you mean by 'obligation'?
I wouldn't dream of saying I know the exact relationship between each union and each provincial government.
There is also the fact (e.g) http://www.sc.gov.cn/10462/10758/10760/10766/index.shtml - there is also outside influences.

Imho, it's rather naive to think the government say: 'jump' and the unions say: 'how high'.

It's fair to say many political parties are 'in the pocket' of the unions right here in the UK and the US - ofcourse some are in conflict.
It doesn't stop them accepting millions upon millions of £$ in donations from powerful unions, does it?

I wouldn't put it as crassly as that, but in a nutshell - yes, that could have been a major factor if not the only factor.

e.g:

A warts and all assesment

Ofcourse 'labour activists' are only going to cite working conditions as the reason.
I read one story where a couple of the suicides could have been due to failed romances.
I guess the cancellation of the companies annual Valentines day party was the reason - damn those Foxconn swines.

 

This.

Don't kill people with your good intentions.

 

I'll respond to the other post later when I've sussed out the links, but have we seriously just gone to say that exploiting people is ok if they need the money, and we should all buy iphones FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

Hey hippy! Don't shut down that illegal underage prostitution ring! She might need the money for athsma medication!

 

I'm not agreeing to 'child labour' - I must make that clear. If a person is skirting around the law by saying they are 16-17 and infact they are 15, then that is a grey area in my mind. Those that are 15-16 do seem to want to work for their family - as soon as possible. You can work in the UK if you are 15 but obviously the law is very different. What age are we saying 'child labour' begins?

 

Haha, now I've seen everything. Hippies for Suicide-Inducing Child Labour.

You're all missing the point, incidentally. Yes, child labour is bad. But working at Foxconn is bad for everyone. They are exploitative employers, who exist mostly to drive down Apple's costs and so increase the profit margin of one of the world's richest companies.

It's not like Apple are going to go broke if they insist Foxconn pay their employers a living wage and hire more people so they can reduce shift times, allow unionisation in order to negotiate with the Foxconn management and so on. No, really. A company that spent almost a billion on marketing alone in the last year is not a company in money trouble.

But you know, reducing their profits slightly would get shareholders in an uproar, so it's not going to happen.

 

If they agree to that then it is not an exploitation. If it is bad for him he can go somewhere else. But hey! Look! There obviously isn't anything else!

If she isn't forced to do it, then great, do it. It is her life and she can decide what she does.