Muslims... Come Join this thread!

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Brocktoon, May 15, 2004.

  1. Antimatter235

    Antimatter235 Member

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    Islam has its own set of definitions on keywords.

    Please clarify how they're supposed to strive with their heart. Mixing war and emotion (instead of physical force) means trying to soften and convert them via " pushing buttons " or mental coercion.


    60.8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just


    Look at " justice ". Sounds good doesn't it ? Yeah until you find out how " Justice " works in islam. It has its own set of laws. BTW " Allah forbids you not " it just means that you have the right to be kind or just, not the duty.

    Here are the laws ( remember, a justice system is based on laws):

    I) adultery : stoning to death;
    (II) fornication : a hundred stripes (lashes);
    (III) false accusation of adultery against a married person: eighty stripes (lashes);
    (IV) apostasy : death;
    (V) drinking wine: eighty stripes(lashes);
    (VI) theft :
    the cutting off of the right hand;
    (VII) robbery on the highway:
    the loss of hands and feet;
    (VIII) robbery with murder: death, either by the sword or by crucifixion.



    29.46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong.

    Inflicting wrong is somewhat distorted in islam. It's like " if they mock Allah, then CRUSH them, those filthy beasts ".

    5.82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

    Well, how to understand that ? With Jews and Pagans, shoot then talk. With Christians be kind and give them the chance to be converted before shooting.

    Check that: 160 Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth). These it is toward whom I relent. I am the Relenting, the Merciful.

    Isn't the "Relenting, the Merciful" a little selective ?

    2:216) “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.”

    What is "many" and how is that they "started" to dislike it. Like it was OK some time ago ?
    And BTW this passage states clearly that whether or not you like it, its good (ie its a duty). The following quote confirm that. When you look closer you can see that you're judgements are void.

    Check that:216Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.



    Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

    Translation: fidels = Heaven, infidels = Hell.

    Not it just mean you should treat them like vermin... Unless they're converted in this case Allah becomes suddenly "kind and merciful":

    Check that: 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

    -----------------
    Outside the little argument. Let's educate ourselves on Allah, the "Kind and Merciful".

    4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

    :) LOVE THE CREATOR... OR ELSE:mad: :mad: !
     
  2. mahasattva

    mahasattva Member

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    How about Buddhism and other Eastern religions or Philosophy which is in different fashion of religious traditional beliefs?Do they included in that God's(Allah known in Arab) rule sent down by Him? I know Islam came from the Judeo-Christian tradition which is different from that Eastern religions like Buddhism. Unlike most other major religions, Buddhism depends on neither divine revelation nor an incarnation of God for its authenticity. Shakyamuni, the Buddha, was a man who through his own efforts attained enlightenment as to the essential nature of life.

    While Buddhism began with the teaching of one human being who awoke to the law of life(truth) within himself, it has come to include the interpretations of that teaching by subsequent scholars and prophets. As we have said, the word Buddha originally meant "enlightened one," one who is awakened to the eternal truth or law of life. This truth is eternal and boundless. It is present always and everywhere. In this sense, the law of life, is not the exclusive property of Shakyamuni Buddha or Prophet Muhammad, or Christ. The truth is open equally to everyone.
    The ultimate and all-abiding law that the Buddha perceived may be another name for some people's concept of God. On the other hand, a person who cannot believe in an anthropomorphic God can see an underlying energy to the universe. The breadth of Buddhism encompasses both views and focuses on the individual.

    There is no one to blame - and no one to implore for salvation. In Buddhism, no God or supernatural entity plans and shapes our fates. In Western religion, you can bring yourself closer to God through your faith, but you can never become God. In Buddhism, one could never be separate from the wisdom of God, because the ultimate wisdom already exists in the heart of every person.

    I was raised to believe that I should always think for myself, that I should discern fantasy from reality, that violence is not something that should be glorified, and that God is greater than our ability to describe in words or to limit with ideas. For these reasons, I do not accept the Quran or Bible as a unique authority on God or any other subject. That does not mean that I dismiss it entirely, however.

    To begin with, I will not accept anything just because it is written in the Quran or Bible. As far as I am concerned the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament from the Christian point of view) is a collection of the tribal legends, historical records, and religious writings of the ancient Hebrews. I am a modern American - not an ancient Hebrew. Therefore, my entire worldview is informed by scientific data and cultural assumptions that are extremely far removed from those of the ancient Hebrews. Unlike them, just to name a few examples, I am convinced that this universe is billions of years old; that life as it now appears on Earth is part of an ongoing process of evolution; that different languages and dialects developed over time; that it is not an abomination to eat pork, shrimp, or lobster, or to mix beef and dairy products; that slavery is immoral; that it is immoral to execute disrespectful children; and that one is never justified in committing genocide or ethnic cleansing. The ancient Hebrews, however, were ignorant of modern astrophysics, ignorant of geology, ignorant of the fossil record and carbon dating, they believed that all of the existing language groups originated from God's curse at the tower of Babel, they believed that it is an abomination to eat certain kinds of foods or to prepare foods in certain ways, they believed that disrespect to God or one's parent's is a capital offense, they practiced slavery, and they believed that God had commanded them to kill every man, woman, and child in certain towns during the conquest of the promised land (in other cases the men and boys were killed and the woman and girls enslaved). So, for scientific and moral reasons I do not view the Bible as an authority.

    The Quran/Bible also relates stories wherein a donkey speaks to its master, a flood covers the entire world and all life on earth today is descended from only the animals aboard Noah's ark, a woman turns into a pillar of salt, people are lifted up bodily into the heavens never to return, the sun stands still in the sky, and finally a man physically comes back from the dead and proceeds to walk through walls and ascend bodily into the heavens. I am leaving out a lot of other miraculous tales that are either logistically impossible, or which could be explained in a more rational way. The point is that the reality I live in does not operate that way, and I have never been given any good reason to believe that any of these things happened in real life other than the testimony of the ancient Hebrews who (as I said) had a prescientific mythical worldview; and the testimony of a small sect of Judaism which became the nucleus of a minor mystery religion in the Roman Empire, which eventually became the official religion of that empire, which then become the reigning religious ideology of various European nation-states. I must say that I require objective, empirical, and verifiable and irrefutable evidence before I throw common sense out the window and accept that any of these things happened in real life.

    I apply the same standard to the more fantastical stories and anecdotes which appear in Buddhism. In Buddhism, however, the fantastic elements are never the main point and they almost always exist to underscore a point that does make sense. In most cases, the metaphorical nature of the supernatural and miraculous in Buddhism is very easy to see and the Buddhist scriptures themselves state that they are using metaphorical language on many occasions.

    I also cannot accept the Quranic/Biblical God's use of violence, terror, and threats to get people to do what He wants. This includes Joshua's conquest of the promised land, the behavior of the Judges, Jesus and St. Paul's threats of eternal damnation for those who do not believe, and finally the Armageddon promised in the Book of Revelations. Jesus even says at one point that he comes not to bring peace but a sword to divide families against one another (Matthew 10:34). It seems to me that the violence and threats of violence in the Bible are nothing more than a very human way of abdicating responsibility and laying all of our very human shortcomings at God's door. I do not accept the Quranic/Biblical portrait of a God who commands, condones, and makes use of violence and terror.
     
  3. geckopelli

    geckopelli Senior Member

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    This is a useless forum.

    All these fanatics do is post quotes. They can't think for themselves. They're like robots.

    Watch.
     
  4. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

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    I will agree with you - in so far as - Some posters sometimes drop large blocks of scriptures without providing original opinions, background context etc.

    I do not agree with your assertion this is all 'useless'.
    If nothing else - you can find their reason for the hope that lies within them.

    Fanatics? I don't think so - no one here is some maniac. They believe these things. They chose to put faith in these scriptures and agree with the principles and that is thinking for themselves.
    Robots?

    Why insult people. no one is a robot here.
     
  5. geckopelli

    geckopelli Senior Member

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    Oh, but they are.

    You'll get no intelligent or thoughtfull responses.

    Just a bunch of quotes.

    Shills.

    I would love to engage a muslim in free debate, but they apparently don't believe in it.

    Just propaganda.
     
  6. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

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    You should try having a discussion with Mahasavvta.

    She is the most 'cunning' of debaters using a strategy of 'overwhelming points and assertions'.

    It makes it nearly impossible to respond to any one of her assertions and.. even if you attempt to quote them individually, you can not separate which part of paragraph is the speculative part, which is a dogmatic conclusion, which is where she rejects supernatural events then suddenly accepts them.. then denies they are important then asserts others are not.. etc etc etc

    If you can get her to stay on ONE single topic at a time (in 3000 words or less) then you MIGHT have a chance at an actual constructive debate.

    Good luck!
     
  7. geckopelli

    geckopelli Senior Member

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    I'm doubt her hypocrisy is any more entertainig than these other guys dogma.

    Besides, half these guys are really only a few shills, looking to recruit gulible western kids. They come to sites like this looking for the discontent and the misfits- easy prey.
    They're still working off the old KGB manual.
     
  8. Cosmic Butterfly

    Cosmic Butterfly Member

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    Very good post Mahasatva...:D

    My opinion on Religions like Christianity, Islam, and Judisiam is that they are all basically lies.Illusions. They are all of ego, and written by an extreme oppressive patriachical mindset.

    I was brought up to a Muslim, but from 6 years up I knew in my being something far greater, and beautiful.
     
  9. xdianax

    xdianax Member

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    :) Geckopelli, your first post was particularly amusing because I was about to post a quote on this thread. Haha, well saying that I think I might post it anyway.

    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

    It is something I felt like sharing, not in order to "convince" anyone of anything, just as something for people to reflect on for a moment.

    Anyway...I would be happy to conduct a debate with other people, without relying solely on quotes, trying my hardest to be consistent, and address the points mentioned by other debaters. To me debating is fun!


    :) Namaste,
    Diana
     
  10. jujunisa

    jujunisa Member

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    there are answers to each and everyone's qtn,remarks and comments. i'm gathering all the evidences and information. i don wish to express my views w/o any basis or proofs like how most of you ppl in here have done. so expect to see my replies soon. rethink what you ppl have written. get ready to answer my qtns.
     
  11. amiera

    amiera Member

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    I am Shiite Muslimah!!!!!!!!!
     
  12. Alvy007

    Alvy007 Member

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    Who says Islam is not a respactable religion.

    What Religion did u come from?
     
  13. Puffis

    Puffis Member

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    I beleive all religions are respectable.
     
  14. M.Saif

    M.Saif Member

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  15. Squidstew

    Squidstew Members

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    I think Wahabi is what the Sauds are, and I think the Sauds themselves merely tolerate other forms of Islam. I also think it is one sect that the others seem to largely, but no universally, agree they most hate. I think Iran is predominantly Shia. I'm not sure about this though, because I truthfully don't know one from the other, just as Muslims don't know the difference in Christian sects. And it generally doesn't matter to followers of other faiths or no faith.
     
  16. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Just before I noticed this thread, I was reading about an anti-Muslim rally in Michigan organized by a bunch of fanatic rednecks who are urging everyone to show up with their guns at Muslim mosques to protest Islam since Michigan is an "open carry" state. Who are the terrorists here? These troglodytes are as "Christian" as ISIS is "Islamic".

    As a Christian, I've had the pleasure of knowing many Muslims, including the imam at our local mosque, who was so supportive when my mother was dying of cancer. I also traveled in Muslim countries and saw first hand how Islam works for the better in people's lives. I'm less interested in what this or that sentence in an ancient book says than in what believers do with it in their daily lives.
     
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  17. Mr.Writer

    Mr.Writer Senior Member

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    Then in what sense are they muslim, if they don't follow the particular sentences in the Quran? Are they not just being ordinary decent people, mistakenly calling themselves "muslim"?

    In Islam, the Quran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe. How would a muslim justify not following particular sentences in the Quran?
     
  18. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Well, for one thing, there is the doctrine of abrogation. Muslim scholars recognize that Allah has the prerogative of changing His mind, or more accurately that allah prefers to make His will known in different historical contexts. http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm There is also the consideration of context. As in interpretation of the Bible, we need to go by meaning, which words alone don't always convey. What the words mean may depend on their historical, as well as their grammatical, context.
     
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  19. Mr.Writer

    Mr.Writer Senior Member

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    Abrogation in Islam invariably erases all the early peaceful sayings that muslim apologists love to quote; ie, no compulsion in religion, killing one person is like killing the world, etc. All of it is out-moded by calls to global jihad. abrogation isn't a solution at the moment, it's the main channel through which much of this barbarism flows.
     
  20. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Seems to me that the provisions restricting violence to the context of just war, with ample provisions for the protection of noncombatants, were never abrogated. Abrogation applies to passages revealed during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, and ceased when he died. The doctrine doesn't allow for constant re-interpretation of scripture to suit the needs of the moment. As for your earlier point about Muslims having a duty to take "the particular sentences in the Qur'an literally and out of context. Islam never developed the Protestant concept of.sola scriptura. Like Catholics and Jews, their interpretations of scripture are more circumscribed by tradition.
     
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