yet another post about gays and the bible

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by tom, May 26, 2004.

  1. tom

    tom Member

    Can someone point out to me where in the new testament that Jesus specificially refers to homosexuality as a sin, and not just sexual immorality? I've read it in the old testament, but the old testament says a lot of stuff that NO Christian would follow today.
     
  2. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    This is all from the New Testament...

    Romans 1
    25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    This is Paul who knew Jesus, and spoke with Jesus many times after his conversion.

    Jesus, as any Jew, would have upheld the opposite gender sexual relationship which God gave to the man and woman at Creation.
    There was no need for Jesus to spell it out to the Jews who He was speaking to in the Gospels.

    However, when the gospel was spread further afield to the Gentiles in Greece, Rome, etc the problems came, and it did have to be clarified for the new converts...

    That is why it is in the later letters from the apostles of Jesus....

    e.g.
    1 Corinthians 6:9
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [I.e. effeminate by perversion] effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    (Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 6 In context: 1 Corinthians 6:8-10)


    1 Timothy 1:10
    and [1 Cor 6:9] immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
    (Whole Chapter: 1 Timothy 1 In context: 1 Timothy 1:9-11)

    The whole emphasis and good news of the gospel of Jesus is that He can change us...that ALL sin is forgiveable.
    I may not be a homosexual, but I may still lie, for example, and that is sin.
    It can all be forgiven if we repent, which means, confess it is wrong- i.e. God is right- and we have not been...and turn from the wrong thoughts and behaviour.
    We might think we can't...but with His power, from His love, we can.
     
  3. ChiefCowpie

    ChiefCowpie hugs and bugs

    paul never knew jesus in the flesh...only an alleged meeting in spirit on the road to damascus...before that, paul was active in the extermination of xtians
     
  4. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    Jesus spoke with Paul many times after the initial meeting.


    Are you telling me you don't believe in Spiritual meeting?
     
  5. cerridwen

    cerridwen in stitches

    But keep in mind that all the quotes from the bible - old and new testament - are from people who are interpreting what God said, like heresay. "this is what God and Jesus would have said or wanted...."

    I think that's one of the flaws of the bible.... there are all these people who have their own interpretations of what God and Jesus said, so they fill in their own information.... but if you're a true Christian, I would think, you would look at the human embodyment of Jesus, who ACTUALLY is God, and not just another person interpreting some visionary conversation they had with God. Nowhere does Jesus say anything about discriminating against gays... In fact, he promoted the idea of LOVING EVERYONE EQUALLY, and nothing less. It was everyone else's writings who pinpoint disliking homosexuals and other groupls of people.
     
  6. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    some things are more straightforward and easy to understand than the grapevine and third hand reporting says.

    ...

    that is right- he loves and welcomes ALL who come to him...

    Yes, with truly unselfish real love- which is why they crucified Him...they didn't like some of the things He said.
    he didn't follow the crowd...He didn't get scared at what people thought of Him for speaking against some things, which He did.

    He was not an 'anything goes' Man.
     
  7. ChiefCowpie

    ChiefCowpie hugs and bugs

    i believe in spiritual meetings but with such, anyone can say anything happened...with the fact that paul and james coflicted on the teachings of jesus has me questioning the veracity of paul's accounts or even paul's accounts were edited by later folks who manipulated the teachings of jesus

    as a gnostic xtian, spiritual meetings are our bread and butter

    paul's teachings give xtianity a state orientation which made it palpable to the roman empire and too, paul was influenced by zoarastrian leanings
     
  8. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    But God is saying that sexual immorality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 says that to lie with a man, as man does with a woman is detestable in the eyes of the Lord. If something is detestable in the eyes of God, that would make it a sin. But in Leviticus 19:17 It says, "Don't hate your brother in heart". Don't hate men for their sins, because obviously everyone sins, but hate sin itself.
     
  9. ChiefCowpie

    ChiefCowpie hugs and bugs

    i tore leviticus out of my bible...didn't think the true god would say such things...maybe an imposter god
     
  10. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    No, they do not. I understand how we need both emphases and how it dovetails together.
    But deep study is needed.
    Faith without works is dead (James)...
    Works without faith are dead ...as far as trying to ''earn'' salvation goes (Paul).
    Both complement and dovetail with the understanding given by the Holy Spirit.
     
  11. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    that is not true at all...the Roman state only got hold of ''Christianity'' 3 centuries after it began... Paul had long gone to meet his Lord.
    His teachings do nothing of the sort...false teachers that slipped in after him were responsible for institutionalising the 'Church.'

    Zoarastrian leanings? What's all that about?
    Because Paul accepted the supernatural do you mean? :(
     
  12. tom

    tom Member

    ok, that's for pointing that out, but that's why I asked for something out of the new testament. Leviticus is the one book that twist my brain more than any other.

    Levitcus 7:23 says you can't eat a medium rare stake if it has grissle on it
    Leviticus 11:6 and 11:7 says you can't eat bacon or rabbit
    Leviticus 11:10 says you can't eat shellfish
    Leviticus 19:27 says a guy can't shave
    and Leviticus 20:2 says that if you do any of these things that you shall be put to death.

    Seeing as most Christians would say that all sin is equal, how come some parts of Leviticus would apply to the modern day world and some wouldn't?
     
  13. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    It really needs the Holy Spirit to show us which applies still...although some of the 'rules' there are common sense...I mean the shellfish and pork one...was given when they were travelling through a hot desert without much hygiene etc...no fridges of course...

    Anyway- that's the Law about things...and Jesus came...and fulfilled/completed the Law in Himself, in His own body.
    But things to do with relationships in Leviticus etc are still very relevant, e.g. no incest etc... we know the problems interbreeding can do these days with genetics...
    So, it needs sifting...but basically- the relationship ones are relevant...the food laws may not be necessary...but I need to re-check.... I must admit...Leviticus is not my first choice of reading from the bible...ha ha ha :D

    Try Galatians in the NT where it explains about the Law, and the difference Grace makes. :)
     
  14. tom

    tom Member

    Galations 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."

    Yup, can't argue with that.
     
  15. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    Basically the Bible is centered around family. Every verse given has the example of the unity between two people being that of a man and a woman. I found one in the new testament:

    Romans chapter 1:27 - "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and receieved in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
     
  16. WayfaringStranger

    WayfaringStranger Corporate Slave #34

    welll smudge thanks for the info, i always wanted to know exactly where it was at in the new testament. i wouldnt worry to much what chief or cerridwen have to say though, youre talking to a witch and a freemason, so its pretty much they're full time job to discredit cristianity.
     
  17. thespeez

    thespeez Member

    Too often we fail to realize that we need to understand the context of what was going on at the time that the passage of scripture in question was being written and what the author(s) was/were trying to communicate! Many times the passage was trying to illustrate the shortcomings in human understanding at the time(s) in question. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are among many books which have numerous passages which illustrate such scenarios.

    One cannot quote chapter and verse and justify their 'bigotry' or shortsightedness. When studying the bible one needs to understand what the situation was at the time in question. This includes the meaning of the language as word definitions have changed over the ages. At the council of Nicea in the 4th century, the bishops and other officials were not shy about manipulating language to suit their own political agenda rather than promote spiritual integrity. Anyone who opposed the 'official' church doctrine after that time faced persecution.

    With the fundamentalists embracing much of this manipulative doctrine to suit their 'mission', and with so much of the public buying into it, no wonder Christianity has been given a bad wrap.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org
    http://freechristians.com/Site_Contents.htm
    http://www.goodnewsinc.org
    Information concerning sex and spiritual issues:
    http://www.libchrist.com
    http://www.libchrist.com/bible/
    check out howsexsin, adultery, fornication, etc.
     
  18. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    I agree, that is very useful for simply cultural things, like head coverings etc...but this is not cultural, it is global and timeless... have men and women changed their genitals since then?
    Do we ignore the fact that God gave woman to man, and man to woman.
    Or are we our own god? i.e. making it up as we go along...
     
  19. Samhain

    Samhain Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    i think thats a really offensive thing to say, wicca is a religion like any other and its job is not to discredit other religions.
    i would like to feel like i can come into this forum and have intellectual debates about christianity, but if that the type of reaction i'm going to get i won't bother.
    its easy not to worry to much about others opinons if all you want is for everyone to agree with you and have an easy time.
    i'd like to know more about christianty but not at the expense of other religions

    S
     
  20. -GOD-

    -GOD- Banned

    A lot of my "footsoldiers" have often condemned gay.

    Why?

    Gay people are a race that will soon be extinct.

    They eat themselves and don't reproduce.
     

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