Why I don't argue/debate Christians anymore

Faith

No matter what arguements/evidence/rhetoric a person gives for or against the concept of God it will always boil down to wether you have can simply rely on faith or not.

Some can.
I cannot.

No person converted me to atheism so I don't expect to be able to convert anyone either.

you either believe or you don't, that simple.

All I can do is be honest about who I am and what I think to be true and teach my son the same.

 

I have faith that if there is an afterlife we will all get to enjoy it, that it isn't discriminatory.

I have faith that if we do have a creator he isn't going to torture me in hell for all eternity when I die, regardless of what religious dogma I do or don't believe in.

 

To me, one of the oddest things about an atheist is his/her denial of faith. You see, everybody (to include the atheist) has faith. The problem is, or so I believe, is that people tend to believe that faith only deals with “spiritual” things such as God, angels, demons, and miracles. But some of the most core and basic beliefs of an atheist require faith.

 

How do you mean?

 

that is pretty much how i feel about it, apart from the whole Great Big Spirit thingy, I don't really have a name, I should really choose one, oooh that will keep me occupied for a few hour.

Yeah i can't accept true Christianity because i too find it hyposcrisy and their God isn't really a God of love is as described in the Bible.
It is better to get a personal relationship then just agree with other people and accept a book of beliefs you may not agree with
Peace michael x

 

One thing I've noticed to be lacking in the hardcore debater types is logic and reason. The "if these conditions are met, then this is true" arguments just don't seem to be understood. I think this "faith" causes that, because it's always a fallback.
The "we'll just have to agree to disagree" thing doesn't work on logical reasonable arguments. It's just a point where they've come down to either facing the logic and reason and reality, or continueing to believe what they believe.
That's very general, so if you don't use that, don't worry about it.

 

-Have you ever met a perfect person? Yeah, neither have I. However, for some reason that is what the world holds Christians to. A Christian makes one mistake and they are hipocrites. But they do not understand why Jesus came and I think Jesus demonstrated His reason for coming the best in His Sermon on the Mount. He stated all these rules that had to be followed to a "T" to get to heaven such as not lusting. And the Jewish response was, "Well that is impossible" and that was exactly Jesus' point. Following God's commands are impossible and failed all the time. But, by accepting Christ as the "Image of God" those faults or short fallings are cleared. Overall, Christians make mistakes all the time but Christ is right there when they fall. Therefore, being perfect is impossible, striving for perfection is not and by striving to follow God's commands He sees our sincerity and knows who His true followers are.



"It is better to get a personal relationship then to agree with other people and accept a book of beliefs you may or may not agree with"...

-How often does a son or daughter get along with their father if they never follow their father's commands. Generally speaking, father knows best : )Likewise, how are we to have a relationship with Jesus if we do not follow his commands. Jesus, Himself, said "those who follow my commands trully love me."

 

you have faith in yourself then, do you not?

see, everybody has faith in something... even you.

 

thats awesome, i think we all have a unique relationship with God/Great Big Spirit even if we do not believe in such a thing, its all a journey to learn. Still struggling on name, maybe I will ask...
peace and love michael

 

No, i was not talking about one mistake for hypocrisy, many Christians do not spread the love of God, and instead go around pushing their beliefs with words and not love. I also think that condemming people is not very Jesus like. I think now that Jesus has been used as a scapegoat so that people can do as they please.

I don't believe that God has commanded anything on us, that is rather dictator-like. Well i guess i do not love Jesus because he said so....
I also think that Jesus was a great spiritual guy, who was close with God, but people over the years may have changed the story to make it out that we must accept Jesus as saviour. It is just the opinion I have came to, I am sorry if you can not accept this
Peace and love michael

 

AHH! a sigh of relief for the most sensible post i've seen on her in AGES.

 

thank you very much for "your" view on this, and i would say that this does make sense, i have often thought in the past whether God was of the whole universe or just a spirit on earth. I am still on my learning journey at the moment, and will always continue.
Thanks, peace and love michael x

 

Christians belive that the Bible is the truth... So therefore they are going to present that everyone is wrong... now should they not be open and sincere to other beliefs of course not... Christians should learn about other beliefs and understand were other come from. On a different note, what is your beliefs based off of... mine are based of the ENTIRE Bible because I believe that it was inspired by God and therefore ENTIRELY true without error. The Bible states itself that it is, useful for teaching, correcting, and rebuking.

 

Are you saying that the bible stating that it is the word of god is evidence that it is the word of god?

That the bible is useful for for teaching, correcting, and rebuking because it states that it is useful for teaching correcting and rebuking?

Are you talking about the bible as it appears today?
Catholic or Protestant?
What about the Gnostic Gospels?
NIV version, King James version, or New King James version?

 

No, i was not talking about one mistake for hypocrisy, many Christians do not spread the love of God, and instead go around pushing their beliefs with words and not love. I also think that condemming people is not very Jesus like. I think now that Jesus has been used as a scapegoat so that people can do as they please.

-This is true, many Christians do not spread the love of God. In fact, all we can know about a Christian is that they are Christian by name but what are they by heart? In the example of Jesus, he spreads his beliefs with both words and works. As Christians we need to do both. What is also true is condeming people like we have nothing wrong with ourselves is not very Christ-like. That is why Jesus says, "Why do you look at the spec in your brothers eye and ignore the log in your own." However, sincerely correcting and teaching people according to the example of Jesus and what the Bible says is not wrong. Through out Christ's ministry He continually had to correct people about their lives but he did it with sincerity and did not shun anyone for being a sinner. And here was the King of Kings in the flesh : )


"I don't believe that God has commanded anything on us, that is rather dictator-like. Well i guess i do not love Jesus because he said so...."

God never commanded us to do anything? Just in Jesus' first sermon He gave us orders to follow. However, they were orders not to enslave us but to free us...

Murder

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.


23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d] Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Is this possible?).

 

What I am saying is that the Bible claims that it is the truth without error. So we would question that claim... I have questioned that claim and came to the conclusion that what the Bible claims is the truth.

Because its the truth, I will follow what it says.

I tend to read the NIV because it is easier to read. But I have no problem with KJV, or NKJV. They all agree with the original texts.

 

Are you just talking about the modern gospels?

some examples of early church works:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

since the early church picked which books would and would not be part of the new testement, how do you know their judgements were sound?

changes were made during the reformation as well regarding which books were god inspired and which were not.

How can a book with so many revisions (and which started out not as a 'book' at all but a collection of stories that were handed during through generations by word of mouth) be considered infallible?

 

Biblical canon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


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The Biblical canon is an exclusive list of books written during the formative period of the Jewish or Christian faiths; the leaders of these communities believed these books to be inspired by God or to express the authoritative history of the relationship between God and his people.

There are differences between Christians and Jews, as well as between different Christian traditions, over which books meet the standards for canonization. The different criteria for, and the process of, canonization for each community dictates what members of that community consider to be their Bible.

At this time, all of the below canons are considered to be closed; that is, most adherents of the various groups do not think that additional books can be added to their Bible. By contrast, an open canon would be a list of books which is considered to be open to additional books, should they meet the other criteria. Each of the canons described below was considered open for a time before being closed. Generally, the closure of the canon reflects a belief from the faith community that the formative period of the religion has ended, and that texts from that period can be collected into an authoritative body of work. Certain Christian churches (such as the Latter-day Saints) which accept a Bible as part of their formally adopted sacred literature may also include other works in the totality of their canon, but they generally do not consider those other works to be part of their Bible. See Sacred text for examples.

The relationship between the closing of the canon and beliefs about the nature of revelation may be subject to different interpretations. Some believe that the closing of the canon signals the end of a period of divine revelation; others believe that revelation continues even after the canon is closed, either through individuals or through the leadership of a divinely sanctioned religious institution. Among those who believe that revelation continues after the canon is closed, there is further debate about what kinds of revelation is possible, and whether the revelation can add to established theology.


Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?

Old Testament

How do we know the Bible has been kept in tact for over 2,000 years of copying? Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date around the time of Jesus copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts which have an 800-1000 years gap between them we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies.

New Testament

In considering the New Testament we have tens of thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament in part or in whole dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed Asia Minor). Many early Christian papyri were discovered in 1935, which have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D. and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).

 

nice definitions, but I was asking you personally.



How can you accept this book as the infallible word of god when the 3 biggest branches of christianity (orthodox, catholic, protestant) can't agree as to what is or isnt divine scripture.



Do you just beleive the books that agree with each other and cut out the rest?

 

Denominations has added or taken away from the Bible that is why I do not follow a specific denomination but rather just follow the Bible and what it says. I am a Christian period