why did Jesus die?

WHY DID JESUS DIE?According to Christian doctrine, Jesus willingly died to atone for the sins of mankind. This is the way Jesus' disappointed followers explained away the terrible defeat and punishment that was the crucifixion.

Many thinking persons can no longer accept this explanation, especially when certain Scriptural truths are taken into account.

Did Jesus die for the sins of others? According to the Hebrew Scripture, "Whoever sins against me, him (only) will I blot out of My book: "Exodus 32:33. And again in Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sins, IT (alone) shall die!" YHVH, the righteous judge states in no uncertain terms: "But every one shall die for his OWN INIQUITY!" Jeremiah 31:30. We are thus forced to conclude that Jesus died for his OWN iniquity! He died to atone for his own sins, and NOT for the sin of mankind. What was Jesus' sin? "And when a (would-be) prophet is enticed and speaks a word (prophesies), I, YHVH, have enticed that prophet and I will stretch out my hand upon him and will destroy him from the midst of My people, Israel!" Ezekiel 14:9. Did Jesus ever prophesy falsely? In the tenth chapter of Matthew we see Jesus speaking to his twelve disciples (including Judas, who was to betray him), sending them forth to proclaim that "the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND!" (verse 7), and that these very disciples would witness his triumphant return, before they had time to visit all the cities of Israel! In the twenty fourth chapter of this same book we find Jesus describing signs and wonders that are to occur "at the time of the end", to these very same disciples. In verse thirty four Jesus states: "Verily I say to you, this generation shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled!" Many Christian commentators attempt to explain that he was referring to some "future" generation. But the text is clear. Jesus was speaking to "THIS Generation", the generation of his own disciples! To be convinced that Jesus' followers, including the apostle Paul, believed and understood this as meaning their immediate lifetime, we read in Hebrews 10:37; "For yet a little while, and he (Jesus) that is coming will come and will NOT DELAY!" And again in Revelation, chapter one; "to show to his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass! ....... for the time is AT HAND!" (verses 1-3). In the sixteenth chapter of Matthew, Jesus tells his twelve disciples: "the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his deeds! Truly I say to you, there are some standing HERE that won't taste of death till they SEE the son of man coming in his Kingdom!" (verse 28). Now, it is an undeniable fact that that generation and the generation of Paul and the Revelator have died and PASSED centuries ago. And Jesus and the Kingdom never materialized! Thus, "when a prophet speaks in the name of YHVH, if the matter never occurs, it is a matter which YHVH did NOT speak of; the prophet has said it presumptuously; you shall NOT fear him!" Deuteronomy 19:22.

In Deuteronomy 13, we read: "If there arise in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a miracle, and the sign or miracle, really happens, about which he spoke, and he says to you: "let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us serve them!" You shall not obey the words of that prophet or that dreamer; for YHVH your Almighty is putting you to proof, to know whether you love YHVH your Almighty with ALL your heart and soul....... And that prophet or dreamer shall be PUT TO DEATH!" Did Jesus call Israel to the worship of a god or gods other than YHVH? "For a good thing we don't stone you but for blasphemy, because you, although you are a man, make yourself god!" John 10:33. "Let this opinion be in you which was also in Christ Jesus who, being in the form of God, though it not robbery to be EQUAL with God!" Philippians 2:5-6.

"God was manifest in the flesh (Jesus)!" First Timothy 3:16.

"He that has seen me has seen the Father!" John 14:9.

Thus, Jesus, the god OTHER THAN YHVH the Sole Creator, fulfilled in his career and actions that which is written in Jeremiah 10:11; "The gods that have not made the heavens and earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens!"

In Ezekiel we read a remarkable parallel to the gospel tale of Jesus' death! Although Ezekiel speaks of the "prince of Tyre", the similarities are amazing: "Will you still persist in saying to him that slays you 'I am god'? But you are man and NOT god, in the hand of them that defile you! You shall die the deaths of the UNCIRCUMCISED by the hands of STRANGERS; for I have spoken, says ADONAY YHVH! Chap. 28:9-10. Could it be that Jesus' career was a repetition of the histories of earlier would-be gods who came to a similar end?

It is clear, at any rate, that Scriptural truth casts a radically different light on the significance and cause of Jesus' death. What does this mean for you?! Have you been serving a false god other than YHVH, the One and Only Creator, Saviour and King?

COME TO YHVH, TODAY!

Distributed By: Mordecai Alfandari Jerusalem, Israel Additional information on request.


http://www.light-of-israel.org/why_did_jesus_die.shtml

 

and here I thought he died from being nailed to a cross...maybe I am too literal.

 

I don't at all like the sound of this. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Jesus death was a just penalty meted out by God? And this because Jesus was a pretender? And now we should all worship a being who demands this type of punishment?

 

BBB,

I am going to respond to you, although my answer will be quite different than sephardic-male's on a number of points.

Mitzvah means command or commandment. I agree with Franz Rosenzweig that it is the result of being commanded by God's presence, feeling the need to act in response to a realized relationship. The same is true for any relationship. Thus, the mitzvot in my view are the human response to God, the right action that was formulated based on an awareness of the Divine. The word for Jewish law is halakhah, which comes from a root for "walk". It is the evolving Jewish path.

But basically, in my view -- and definitely not sm's view -- this commandedness is very influenced by man, who is the one feeling commanded and acting as a result of that feeling. This means there will be human influence on any mitzvah, like the sacrificial system which shows foreign influence, or the book of Deuteronomy which looks very similar to a Hittite vassal treaty, or the parts of the Torah that resemble Hammurabi's Code.

As times change, the text changes too, because the understanding of the text changes. For instance, eye for an eye does not mean literally eye for an eye, and the Jewish interpretation of this actually seems to me like it may be true from the beginning, in that it is so thorough and thoroughly convincing.

So, bringing this back to Jesus, the understanding in that past society was that if someone was acting as Jesus acted, it would be that they had to be killed. That was the penalty. However, two problems. One, there would have had to have been either a trial before the Sanhedrin -- and while there is one in the Gospels, it is historically inaccurate and does not represent the way the court conducted itself -- that would have likely meant a less strict penalty than death, and Israel did not have self-governing power at the time.

I find it more likely that another theory I have heard is true, and of course this is all based on such unreliable sources (gospels) of history anyway, but the whole thing at the Temple is so unflattering that I think it's more likely it is at least in part true, either that or the people writing it really didn't know anything about what went on at the Temple. Basically, Pontius as the governor would have gone down himself to monitor the Pesah celebration, which was a huge pilgrimage festival. He would have had to leave his pampered life to come to Jerusalem where there would be people and noise, smells, and he would have had no patience for any troublemakers. So if anyone started trouble he would have ordered them killed immediately to make an example of them. But the early Church couldn't portray the Romans in such a negative way, both because they wanted to survive and because they were preaching to Romans. So they blamed the Jews. It's an Oedipal thing.

And he's not telling you to pray to Hashem. He's just been posting a bunch of countermissionary material. This is actually addressed to other Jews. Although technically, as per the traditional Jewish view, you are praying to Hashem -- as are all people who pray -- just incorrectly.

Dauer

 

Dear Daur,


Thanks for that. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in exercising God's will , as revealed as a command, human will is certain to interfere. I think thats probably true in 99.9% of cases.

As for the gospel accounts of Jesus trial and death, I don't think they are to be seen as reliable historical records. There are many anomalies, including the fact that He was taken down from the cross, which was the opposite of usual Roman procedure. But I didn't actually respond to the original post because of that so much.

My own personal view of Jesus is quite simple. I believe He was a Divine being that came down from above (exactly in the manner of the Hindu Avatars) to spread love and knowledge of God. This didn't fit in at all with the politics of the day, Jewish or Roman, and so he was silenced using the usual methods of the time. I don't think he was resurrected physically as is claimed, but still I do think He appeared to others after His death in a body of a different nature.

I do not accept His death as a sacrifice in the sense that christian orthodoxy accepts it. I don't believe He died to placate God's wrath or pay for Adam's sin. I think His message has been quite scrambled by followers over two millenia, but nonetheless, Christianity has produced some very spiritual people.

Likewise Judaism, although I can't claim any detailed knowledge.

Love & peace.

 

That is exactly what I am saying, and many Jews would agree with me that it is at least partially from man. I take it very far because I say revelation is just the experience, and the "command" is the driven motivation to act taken from that experience. It's similar to the command to act we feel in any meaningful relationship, only much greater. In Judaism this way was outlined for future generations, and each generation has adapted it to current situations and moralities.

For Orthodoxy however, the view would be more along the lines of, "The way we understand the mitzvot now is the way they were understood before. The written and oral Torahs were given to Moses at Sinai."

I disagree with this view, but am not so against it because due to Judaism's nature it is very unusual for fundamentalism to occur. If it is working for someone, it is fine with me.

My own personal bias is that I don't believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics, even as I do believe it is quite possible there are things going on outside of the world as we know it and do believe in the possibility of -- and think in terms of -- a divine plan. So my take on any event in history tends to be more grounded in what we know about the way the world works. So I am not singling you out when I say that I find this unlikely, as well as anything else that could be categorized as myth or legend. That doesn't mean I disregard myth or legend. I think they can be packed with wisdom. The nice thing about sacred history is that there is room for interpretation. I know even my understanding of revelation could be wrong, but if it is, so what? The results of whatever that process was, the mitzvot, are working for me. I know this is leaving the topic a little but I just want to make it clear so you have a better understanding of my theological position and do not consider my inability to relate to you about supernatural events to be rude. To me, I guess, the natural is supernatural, including all actions carried out by humanity.

I agree, and I really think it happened very early on. But myself I don't bother to commit to saying a particular model for Jesus was Jesus. For one, it's not relevant to my myth. For two, there are about 5 different versions that historians have come up with, some in direct opposition to each other. I really think it's one of those things that's lost to time, and that's probably for the best.

I agree again. No religion has exclusive claim to God.

Dauer

 

in his fascinating (& controversial) book _the passover plot_ dr shonfield (one of the scholars who was involved in the early translation teams for the dead sea scrolls) suggests that jesus had carefully planned many of the great & small aspects of his ministry & passion to correspond to his interpretation of what was required of "the suffering servant" who would redeem israel, freeing her people from the cruel yoke of roman domination & establishing the kingdom of righteousness on earth...

 

the jewish mafia payoff a italian hitman to do the job "petty much rounds it up"

 

My spliff, you have a way with words, and a lack of Historical guidance. You may wish to do a little reading before tossing around such ignorant accusations.

 

i wonder if jesus was kill today would they use a black and deker cordless nail gun? marine playwood for the cross, and stainless nails so they wont rust.

 

he died because you touch yourself at night.

 

i get mad when other people blame the jews for jesus death he was a jew order to death by jews thats all... if i broke into a jewish condo in miami beach they would the same thing to me exept im not jewish.

 

lol ok

 

He raised to the Heavens

 

Excuse me but I'm a bit confused here. I'm not a religeous person. But what I think I'm seeing here is someone of the Judean religion showing reasons why those of the Christian religion might be wrong.
And points being made that Judism is correct in it's core, but is also "human"? If some of it is "human reaction" to what god wants from us, say stoning people to death because god hates what they did, then where do you draw the line? Why can't you just go all the way to the beginning and say it's all just human reaction to nature? And the notion of God, is also "human reaction".
Once you accept the smallest bit of dogma, why stop? God gave Moses the 10 commandments, God told me to poke your eye out.
Those of the Jewish faith, may be correct in saying they are not as dogmatic as the Christians, and have a better grasp on the idea of metaphor and human influence in ancient writings, but they still have a RELIGION based in dogma. A religion intended on preserving it's people (a good thing) but often at others expense (book of Joshua). So in saying, the Christians might be wrong in believing Jesus is THE son of God, I can't grasp how anyone can make that point coming from any "religeous" view. Dogma is dogma no matter how big the pile.
Wow, that's the closest I've come to standing up for Jesus since I was a "born again 13 yr old".

 

GOD HAS NO BODY OR IMAGE
​

Edited by Hugh Fogelman
​

God is not a physicality or subject to accidents of matter. Being the Creator of the dimensions of length, width, depth, and time, God stands outside and cannot be defined by them nor confined within them. Neither can division or combination be applied to God.

God has neither body, nor shape, nor form. Therefore He must be beyond space and time, which are the coordinates that define form. “He” must also be beyond gender. God cannot be many Divine beings (not even a trinity), since more-than-oneness is a feature of physicality. He must be only One. “The Lord, He is God―there is none else beside him” (Deuteronomy 4:35). To realize that God is not anything in the world of space-time helps expand our thinking.

We can then say that God is both omnipresent and transcendental, two words that express the idea that God is not in space-time. Omnipresent means He fills the entire universe, as Isaiah the prophet states in Prophets, “Holy, holy, holy is God of hosts -- the whole world is filled with His Glory” (Isaiah 6:3).

Further, since God has no physical properties and is beyond the laws of nature, He is transcendental, meaning that God must be prior to everything else, “outside” space-time, so to speak, such that God makes everything else possible. He has no beginning and no end. He always has been and always will be. Since God is before and above all, we also affirm that He is Creator, and that His power in the universe is unlimited. We therefore speak of God as being omnipotent (all-powerful) and refer to Him in prayer as “King of the universe.” He created space, time, and everything that is in it.

Use of the masculine pronoun is a convention with metaphorical meaning, but only a convention. Indeed, all the Bible’s descriptions of God having physical form such as an “outstretched hand” are meant symbolically. As further proof these are usages of language in transferring and extending meanings or employing figures of speech. Scripture goes on to give 13 examples of non-living things attributed that which they do not possess.

What is Genesis 1:27 referring to when it states: “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him.” Is this a “spiritual” image?

Does God have ears because it says, “God heard the sound of your words” (Deut. 1:34)?

Does God have a mouth since it says, “God spoke to us” (Deut. 1:6)?

Does God have an arm since it says, “I shall redeem you with an outstretched arm” (Exodus 6:6)?

Does God have a hand, as it says, “I raised My hand to give it to Abraham” (Exodus 6:8)?

Does God have feet (Zechariah 14:4 and in Exodus 24:10) and God walked, as well, in the garden, in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8) and Enoch walked with him (Genesis 5:24)?

In discussions of God, the use of either pronoun, “He” or “She,” is not to be taken literally. These words are no different than expressions like “written by the finger of God” (Exodus 31:18), “God’s hand” (Exodus 9:3), “God’s eyes” (Genesis 38:7), or “God’s ears” (Numbers 11:1). Jews do not believe that God has body parts; it would in fact be heretical to think so. However, the Holy Writings use these anthropomorphic metaphors because they are easier for the human mind to grasp. (See the Mishnah Torah of Maimonides, Chapter 1, 7-12.)

So why does the Torah use human terms to describe God? Because the human mind is limited, and therefore lacks the ability to conceive of God who is perfect. As the Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, said:

"That there are matters we don’t understand is obvious―how could the finite intellect of an inherently subjective mortal being, imprisoned within the confines of time and space, be expected to fathom the infinite wisdom of the Creator? The great wonder is that there are matters we can understand." 1

So the Torah describes God in familiar terms, so that we could grasp aspects of God’s character. For example, we can now understand that God has the power of communication (mouth), the trait of kindness (right hand), etc.

As for the specific verse in Genesis, what does it mean to be “in the image of God”? Humans are like God in the sense that we have free will. Free will does not mean picking chocolate over vanilla. That’s simply a preference, just as a cow chooses to eat hay instead of grass. Rather, “free will” refers to the type of decision, which is uniquely human: a moral choice, to do right or wrong. This stems from the divine soul that is unique to all human beings.

There are times when you know objectively that something is good for you, but your physical desires get in the way and distort your outlook. The animal soul within us wants to choose the easy path, which may not be the morally correct choice. Sometimes we can actually hear ourselves fighting it out. Here’s a conversation you may have had with
yourself:

Divine Soul: “Let’s get out of bed early today and really accomplish something meaningful!” Animal Soul: “Leave me alone, I’d rather sleep.” Divine Soul: “Come on, let’s be great!” Animal Soul: “Relax, what’s the big deal if we wait until tomorrow?”

What’s going on? Are you schizophrenic? No. Just battling opposing sides within yourself. And that’s what makes the human being so unique. Of all God’s creatures, only humans can become elevated through choice, as we are not bound in our decisions by any pre-ordained laws. That’s truly divine!

One might wonder why thinking that God has body parts, hand, legs, eyes, mouth etc would be considered “heretical.” The short answer is: It is idol worship to think of God as being limited to human attributes. The use of these anthropomorphic metaphors, as discussed above serve only one purpose, they make it “easier for the human mind to grasp” some concepts. These metaphor are not descriptions of God’s being, nor are the metaphor images in which one should rely when contemplating God. To think or worship God in the metorphic sense, with this being your “image” of God, is in essence creating “your own personal idol.” Jews see no difference between idols created from stone or clay and that of an intangible idol created in the mind.

So what is so wrong with envisioning God in human form? To answer this we have to go to the “Laws,” the 613 Mitzvos commanded of the Jews.

The Hebrew Laws (Mitzvah) beginning with # 25 and ending with number # 29 all deal with the nature of God.

# 25 (Exodus 20:2 ) The existence of an omnipotent Creator,
# 26 (Exodus 20:3) You shall have no other gods before me, it is interesting to note that this also applies to gentiles as well as Jews,
# 27 (Exodus 20:4) You shall not make yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything.
# 28 (Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them...and by extension touch them, and
# 29 (Exodus 20:5) You shall not serve them. This is not a typo...’you shall not serve them” is mentioned twice.

Two Laws, one phrase; do you get the feeling God was trying to make a point here, I do. But I got off the point. Let’s look back at #25.

The essence of the law states, It is a mitzvah to believe in the existence of an omnipotent Creator (HASHEM), Who is the force, dictating all natural laws, and that He sustains and provides for all creatures. We are to believe there is in existence a Perfect Being―God. This mitzvah is the very essence of Torah Judaism and the most basic of all fundamentals.”

The key word here is “omnipotent,” all seeing, all knowing, ever present, totally inconceivable and beyond comprehension by man, and in need of NOTHING.

So why is the “metaphoric literalist” an easy target for idol worship? When that image, statue, picture, body part, or man/god becomes “Your image of God” you are guilty of idol worship.

Proverbs 8:26 - Nor the HEAD of the dust of the world
Exodus 10:5 - And they shall cover the EYE of the earth
Isaiah 1:2 - And give EAR oh earth
Numbers 11:31 - Above the FACE of the earth
Numbers 16:32 - And the earth opened her MOUTH
Isaiah 24:16 - From the WING of the earth
Daniel 10:4 - By the HAND of the river
Exodus 2:3 - By the river’s LIP
Exodus 15:8 - The deeps were congealed in the HEART of the sea
Ezekiel 38:12 - That dwell in the NAVEL of the earth
Jonah 2:3 - Out of the BELLY of the netherworld
Job 38:8 - who shut up the sea with doors when it broke forth and issued out of the WOMB
Jeremiah 31:8 - And I will gather them from the THIGHS of the earth

All these figures of speech are used to get across a non-literal meaning. Any body organs or functions when applied to God are only used figuratively just like they were figurative when used in connection with the earth and her waters. The great medieval philosopher Maimonides (known to Jews as the Rambam) went so far as to state in his code of law, “Whoever conceives God to be a corporeal being is a heretic and an apostate.”

The applicable assertion of God smelling sacrifices, where the concept of reception is all that is implied―God does not smell burnt offerings. He is desirous and receptive of our sacrifice or prayer, thus we ask him to receive (smell) our sacrifice and accept our prayer in favor. This is why sincere prayer is equivalent to sincere sacrifice. It is the act of true supplication that God desires. What can God do with fat, blood, and smoke? When we fast and pray all day on Yom Kippur we lose fat and blood and it rises with our prayer as an atonement offering to God.

RaMB”M left us the closest thing we have to a catechism or simple articles of faith. In the very first of Thirteen Principles of the Faith, Judaism declares with perfect faith of belief:

“....the Holy One, blessed is He, is present and oversees; that He is the Unique Unity; that He doesn’t have a body or any likeness of a body.”

So what is so wrong with envisioning God in human form? To answer this we have to go to the “Laws,” the 613 Mitzvos commanded of the Jews. The Hebrew Laws (Mitzvah) as told in Exodus Chapter 20 all deal with the nature of God.

Exodus 20:2-5―The existence of an omnipotent Creator.

Exodus 20:3-4 “You shall have no other gods before me” which applies to gentiles as well as Jews, You shall not make yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything.

Exodus 20:5) You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them...and by extension touch them, and You shall not serve them. This is not a typo...’you shall not serve them” is mentioned twice. Two Laws, one phrase.

The essence of the law states, “It is a mitzvah to believe in the existence of an omnipotent Creator (HeShem), Who is the force dictating all natural laws, and that He sustains and provides for all creatures. We are to believe there is in existence a Perfect Being―God. This mitzvah is the very essence of Judaism and the most basic of all fundamentals.”

The key word here is “omnipotent,” all seeing, all knowing, ever present, totally inconceivable and beyond comprehension by man, and in need of NOTHING. So why is the “metaphoric literalist” an easy target for idol worship? When that image, statue, picture, body part, or man/god becomes “Your image of God” you are guilty of idol worship. It is difficult to find the right descriptions for God, so it may be easier to begin by saying something about what God is not.

Our ancestor Abraham set the pattern nearly 4,000 years ago when he rejected idol-worship. God, Whoever He was, could not be identified with the sun, moon, stars, or other natural phenomena. The Divine cannot, in fact, be represented in physical form.

These accords with the second of the Ten Commandments, state, “You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image.” God cannot be reduced to human form either, as some religions have held. As the Torah states, “Take good heed of yourselves, for you saw no manner of form on that day when God spoke to you at Horeb...” (Deuteronomy 4:15)



FOOTNOTES:

1. Bringing Heaven Down to Earth, from the wisdom of the Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson

 

I'm Christian. So maybe I can explain. (please no flames, I'm not doing a direct attack.)

First of all, I'm thankful for you Jews because without you, there'd be no Christianity!

Jesus was crucified because he said that he was the Messiah,(which, in MY oppinion, he was). When he was crucified, God forfeited him to pay for our sins. He was the last sheep. He was sinless, and his blood was shed in order to wash our sinful blood away.
Now Christians (including me) believe that instead of going to paradise (which is said to have been destroyed after his death), we go to heaven, where we'll be in God's presence.

Hope that clears things up!
If not, just ask me.

 

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won’t you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a night on the town ?
I’m counting on you, Lord, please don’t let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

That’s it!