TRUMP IMPEACHED!

It's arguable he became president and keeps getting support because so many people like giving in to their inner mr. Hyde. Although 6-eyed stated he mainly voted for him because he has a problem with pc behavior and I'm sure there are more people who based their decision like that, the majority of Trump voters seem to do it because he's 1) regarded as an outsider, but 2) also champions and defends the conservative protestant values like anti abortion, anti immigration from shithole countries, valuing the economy above the environment, be greatly hesitant to improve gun control etc. etc.
That he makes it seem (righteously or not) that he keeps his word on his promises makes these supporters think that despite his unorthodox behavior he remains the best choice to keep their values in check on a national level.
So in their eyes they're voting pragmatic. Despite his unfortunate behavior or communication at times.
That a significant amount may regularly applaud his blunt communication is of course also because they feel just as antagonized by the unnuanced left as vice versa. It's terribly unfortunate when the moderate and serious debate gets overly influenced by the more extreme few, who are not in it to understand the other side or have a good discussion with them.

 

So there's a doc on dutch tv of a christian journalist visiting several places in the US to find out why fellow christians voted and support Trump. I'm enjoying it because these people are explaining themselves without feeling convicted. They also more often than not fully understand and acknowledge why this dutch christian has sincere trouble understanding their choice. But they value their cultural standards being kept in check above having a pc president. Most don't applaud him being blunt, impulsive etc in his communication style, some are appalled by aspects in his personal life but hey, he kept some of his promises. The Republicans have a strong position. That's what they craved and value. And it seems to me that plenty of left leaning people crave a similar thing (the democrat party should dominate national politics and everything s bearable again) so can they really blame those conservatives for that?

 

Alexis de Tocqueville said that political factions would destroy American Democracy, especially the faction of former slaves, because of anger and resentment regarding slavery. The Republican Party has traditionally opposed the funding of public education because of their fear of the Educated Black Man.

 

Yes, there are components of the Trump base that support him for "pragmatic" (opportunistic?) reasons. Evangelicals see the Democrat Party as a party of secularists, who are soft on gays, abortion and Muslims, and Trump is putting lots of conservative judges on the court. From that standpoint, their choice is "rational". Another component is white, blue collar, lacking college diplomas--historically a group who rallied behind Democrats, but became disenchanted as the Clintons embraced Republican neo-liberalism and the Dem establishment seemed to be more concerned about minorities and immigrants than them. Globalization and automation reduced the value and importance of blue collar workers, creating an opportunity for demagogues like Trump to convince them that their problems were a result of immigrants and Chinese competition, and that he could solve them, just as he suckered the poor slobs who enrolled in Trump U.

I think you're right that the "unnuanced left" has its flaws, as well. Moderate voters (like me) who are basically satisfied with the contours of our country are understandably concerned when Elizabeth and Bernie call for extensive restructuring and are vague about how their welfare programs will be paid for. And the political correctness does become tedious. So there are difficult choices facing us. But it would be a mistake to equivocate and say, as WP does, well they're all the same. At the root are differences in basic values--not just misunderstandings about facts. We have a politician in the Oval Office now who is fanning the flames of those differences more than any I think we've had in history. We need to be supporting leaders who can forge coalitions that cut across these differences. What is missing from this picture is a sizeable group that emphasizes institutional integrity, the rule of law, and fiscal responsibility as paramount values. Commentators say the Democrats can't just be against Trump, but must be for something. Progressives have taken that to mean being for lots more welfare benefits. I think institutional integrity, the rule of law, and fiscal responsibility are also worthy values to be for. After another four years of the chaos President, who would be unleashed to let his inner id run wild, Americans may be ready to put some of these differences aside and work to rebuild--if we're still here and that remains a possibility.

 

As you formulated it now it sounds like you mean all Trump supporters. I took notice of several that do not love ugly. They simply care about certain matters that they have more trust in when defended/kept in check by a (any) Republican. So those Trump supporters didn't vote Trump because they like it he lies, steals and cheat. They simply don't see their values protected by the democrats. People have of course the right to vote in their own self interest and vote pragmatic, which is what plenty of people who voted for Trump are doing. They don't have to spend their vote thinking about all fellow americans. It's nice and commendable when people do so, but its not an obligation or makes them by definition completely dubious when they do not.

 

Of course, not all Trump supporters love ugly. As I've mentioned before, I have a group of them over to my house every week . The reason I do that is not to try to reform them (hopeless task) but because they're my closest friends--the ones I'd turn to in a jam, and vice versa. As I've also mentioned before, these guys pride themselves in not following things like the impeachment hearings, and make fun of me for doing so. They get their news in summary form from exclusively right wing sources. They share my love of small town living, a place where everybody knows your name, and think as little as possible about what's going on in Washington, D.C. or (gasp) California or New Yawk City. They're models of the phenomena economists call "rational ignorance" and "rational irrationality". They've made a conscious decision to tune out information that distracts them from their jobs, families, and fun, and some of them believe unbelievable things because they're comforting to them. They decided early on that they don't like libruls, the media, and Democrats, or that their daddies didn't, and that's good enough for them to go on. At a Bible study class I go to at the Catholic church, most of the folks are also Trumpsters because of the abortion issue. These are pleasant, intelligent people who believe everything the church tells them without question and start off every session with an extensive prayer list for people and events in need of help. And I always ask myself (but not them, that would be rude) do you actually think if you don't pray for these people and things God will let awful things happen,let them die, suffer, etc.? Yes, it's obvious to me that they do, although they probably wouldn't put it that way. And that's the frustration. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

 

Your best friends honestly do not sound that different from the stereotypical Trump supporter, the only thing that differs from MeAgain s description is the blatant love for ugly, and the applauding of lying and cheating. I'm saying there's another kind of Trump supporter, who does not rely on propaganda or consciously evade news. They simply favor Trump keeping their societal values in check than having any democrat working against that. It does seem like even people like you and MeAgain have trouble admitting those are a significant amount as well.

 

I dont think all Trump voters are bad, I agree more with Okie's assessment of them than MeAgain's.

But I can tell you, your portrayal of the well informed Trump voter making up a significant portion of his electorate is not accurate. I know a lot of Trump voters, a lot more than can be covered in a documentary, and they're not well informed. And I'm not saying that as a way to put them down or insinuate they're stupid at all. Most of them are just genuinely salt of the earth people who pay more attention to their immediate surroundings than what is happening on a national level.

 

You're wrong. They don't have to support his bad stuff in order to validate their vote and not everyone who voted for him does so. Insisting it is so in all seriousness for every Trump supporter is a huge fallacy.

 

It sound like you know more dumbasses than intellectuals, Trump voters or not.

I actually feel your pain. I'm in Georgia.

 

I'm not saying the majority is well informed. A minority of Trump supporters can also still be a significant amount. An amount that is always put on a pile with the uninformed and unreasonable majority by even the reasonable left.

And some also do pay attention. It's not like everyone who came to a different conclusion or has a different set of values is willfully ignorant.

 

Yeah lol. SC here so we're neighbors.
And I was going to make the point that being uninformed isnt limited to Trump voters. There's a reason voter turn out is so low in the US. So many people just dont pay attention and dont care.

Some of the Trump voters I know are intelligent in other areas though, I'm really not trying to call them idiots. Another issue is that there's a lot of bullshit to wade through when it comes to american politics, a lot of misinformation. It takes a good bit of time and effort to really stay informed

 

This is the most succinct synopsis I've read on this forum in a long time. Thanks, Okie.

 

Trump got into office banking on Republican stupidity, and the whole fiasco is just a way to push the Trump brand and extend his own legacy. If Democrats were dumb enough to vote for him, he'd be a pro-choice Democrat. I don't for a second believe Trump has any genuine faith.

 

But see this is where the hypocrisy lies. trump + societal values is an oxymoron. trump doesn't care about these people, or their values he just tells them he does.

 

I agree that's likely, but I think those Trump supporters im talking about are also considering that. It's simply so that he's working on what they want and the democrat party is not. And they want their conservative values kept in check on a national level.

 

My main problem with trump voters, other than the fact that they voted for trump, is their inability/unwillingness to believe the man can do no wrong.
and Okie's church going friends who profess to be against sin. How can they support someone who has sinned the majority of his life?

 

We can disagree with anti abortion people for instance, but we can't seriously portray everyone who's anti abortion as unreasonable or ignorant or a moron or something just because they have a very different conviction on such a matter. Even though the majority of anti abortion people may word their stance regularly in a questionable way.