Aren't the ones who are the people who's world view is entirely different than mine, but the people who share a common value (anti-war, vegetarian) with me but are total assholes about it. Seriously, if you don't eat meat stop telling everyone that their hamburger is murder and spoiling Thanksgiving diner, been there done that, don't work. You aren't going to change anyone's opinions by doing stupid shit. Being nice to people even if they don't share your same values works a lot more to your advantage than being confrontational and abrasive. PETA did this protest where people dressed up as eyeballs, for some reason or another. Did this convince anyone that killing animals is morally wrong? No, it convinced them that people from PETA are annoying and a little bit off. And don't get me started on the ELF and other extremist groups that resort to property damage, you are alienating sane people! stop it! Change begins with yourself, use your buying power to help companies that are responsible and punish the ones that aren't. Get informed, get together with like-minded individuals write letters and get involved on a grass roots level, the republicans have been doing this for years now and it's obviously paid off more than having a puke-in or building a giant effigy or bush as a horse's ass.
Dressing up as an eyeball and running amok sounds like fun (hell, I'd love to) but more like Trigger Happy TV or something. Some of the tactics are just plain dysfunctional and won't change anybodies mind about anything.
You can't be about total peace and love if you go trying to change peoples views in some un-friendly manners. Not everyone is the same, and do we have to be? But being in an eyeball suit and running around would be fun...
Even though I don't support the techniques and methods of ELF, you have to give them credit for being strictly opposed to the injury or murder of human life. They only perpetrate their actions at places that are empty, and they take responsibility for it. When the CIA or state dept. do something vile, do they fess up to the public? I think not. So even though I'm not a proud supporter of ELF, and think that burning something down is not productive, they still retain more honor than the U.S. empire, who slaughter innocent life as policy, lie to the public, then chuckle behind closed for being so proud of themselves. So...who's the "lesser of 2 evils" here? One burns down empty would-be homes for the rich, and the other is bent on global domination through corporate-military Imperialism. C'mon now.
I don't know, if I owned a car dealership that i had to invest a lot of money and a lot of time to get it up and at a point where I'm finally turning a profit I'd be pretty hurt if some asshole came through and torched half my goddamn lot because people consistently buy SUVs. That is a shittload, ditto when they burned down those new subdivisions, people like you and me had put thousands and thousands of dollars into, prolly gone into debt because they wanted to finally get a house when some asshole torches the entire place. This is unexcusable behavior, and reflects very poorly on the environementalist and vegiterrean movement, why should we excuse this behavior because people who disagree with us idealogically have done argueably worse (although to their credit they were in a position to blow up the damned world and didn't, imagine if the ELF were in possession of that much power.)
I couldn't agree with you more Eugene! I don't understand how some people think their tactics make sense. For example, my aunt had a second heand leather jacket. Some people dumped red paint all over it! Well, now she doesn't wear the jacket and the animals life, which wasn't taken for the leather, was taken in vain even more. Now the resources used to make the jacket (the skin, water, energy) are wasted because its ruined. At least let the jacket be, so it doens't wind up in a landfill. Let it get used! Sorry, that's just a personal example I can think of.
I think that we'd all do a lot better to get in less fights with those that we agree with. While I'm not into torching SUV's myself, I can see where they're coming from. Those people who own SUV lots and buy new subdivisions in newly developed areas instead of condos in the city are participating in an intensely violent system. There are two differences between their actions and those of the ELF. 1) They are seperated from the violence of their actions by several layers of money. 2) They are not acting based on a desire to create a better world, but on a desire to gain materialy. So if you want to complain about someone, complan about them. But if you want to spend your time wisely, don't complain about anything. Go out and try to make the world better, however you think that's done.
Oh, and if the Earth Liberation Front ran the world, they'd probably try to.... liberate it by destroying all of the weapons that are threatening to destroy it. See, that's the trick. If you want to end oppression, you have to destroy power, not find someone good to take the power.
For one thing, I clearly said that I didn't support ELF's tactics. Did you guys conveniently overlook that? I think ya did... That logic is so convoluted that I wouldn't even know where to begin. David54 said it better than I ever could. Digger, where have ya been!!!!! good to see you back on here my friend.
wrine, what an enlightened viewpoint! I'm sure you support violence when the state does it though, right?
RevoMystic, I'm not exactly one for violence on any real level. If the state commits violence, then usually I protest it. I am not one for the death penalty, state waged war, or anything of the like. Actually I have been in many protests against such things. Actually, I don't like governments at all. Governments lie. Governments cheat. Governments spend billions on war but nothing on social programs. Hell, America doesn't even have a defensive force; its all offensive. Not trying to be an ass or anything, but if you got to know me then you'd know how much I hate violence. I was just trying to be lighthearted like any normal person, dont hate me for it.
"You can't eat that lamb's steak!" "Why not?" "Isn't it sad for the cute lambs who die because of our hunger?" "Yes well this one's already dead and not eating it won't bring it back to life." Hehehe, totally with ya mate.
Well I'm annoying and a bit off, but I still agree with your main point. Making people angry doesn't convince anyone of anything, you just make them angry. If anything, it would firm up their resolve not to agree with you if their life depended on it. Sometimes getting angry yourself can be good, if you show real emotion and don't make the other person angry in return. Sometimes they might see your feelings and think, "Gosh, golly I didn't mean to upset you like that." But in general, being nice and being a good example of a human being is the best advertisement for your world view that you can give.
People who try to make a statement with violence aren't proving themselves to be much different from the government. They only have different ideas from the government, but act in the same manner. To really make a difference you have to actually do something different. The part about how ELF would take away all the weapons of the world to prevent them from destroying the world makes a hell of a lotta sense, but when they do try to take away certain powers with added violence doesn't make much sense at all. Acting in a peaceful way, persistently (that's the key!), to prove a point in the end (it may be a long time from the end), will work. It may not work to the fullest extent of what is hoped for or wanted to acheived, but it will surely make a difference in some positive form. When people protest and try to make an ass of themselves, that's all they're going to accomplish. We need to act like decent, sophisticated, and intellectual people. Acting like you know what you're talking about and doing like an adult ,and not like a little kid going on a crazy streak burning houses and car lots and dressing like eyeballs (which DOES sound like fun, but not to make a difference in society), will accomplish much more. But...thats just what I think will make a difference.And believe me i really DO want to change the way this world has become.
Something I've noticed on a constant basis is that alot of people who tie themselves to a cause only do it because it gives them a politically correct venue in which they can vent all their repressed, unrelated, personal anger. Some of them couldn't care less about what banner they're carrying as long as they get to attack something. For the most part, I think, people can see through this, and it takes alot of credibility away from the cause itself.
exactly. those are the ignorant protestors. real protestors are trying to make a difference for the benefit of everyone else and not just themselves.
Yeah, it's because PETA has changed its priorities from chaning everyday people's opinions to just getting media coverage. Peace and Love, Dan
people actually forget im a vegetarian. i remember once my friend was talking about turkey drumsticks at the county fair and how good they were. and i was just listening to her and talking about county fair food and all that, and al of a sudden she says "wait-why am i telling you this? your a vegetarian!" kind funny. guess im not very pushy, huh?
