The national libertarians are not Nazis but…

It seems Depoisoned thought Rat was a Nazis

And I thought no, I don’t think Rat is a Nazis, he’s more of a ‘national libertarian’ but as I’ve pointed out they seem to have a lot in common with the methodology of the Nationalsozialismus

Why do the national libertarians keep reminding me of the Nazis?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=104835

I mean Rat and people like him go on about trying to teach people about ‘the true rulers of America’, which he seems to believe are international bankers/financiers, who use liberals, communists and secret societies to do their bidding.

Well this is from a Nazis poster – [Hilter] - “is ruthless in uncovering the rulers of the German economy, the international bank Jews and their lackeys, the Democrats, Marxists, Jesuits, and Free Masons!”

Both are basically scare tactics that are about emotion rather than reason, it’s using fictitious threats to gain popular support for policies that might otherwise be bulked at (Reichstag Fire-9/11, the terrorist threat means the need for Patriot Act-Enabling Act)

And so it would seem to me that if the Rat-like ever gained power…well….

Think about it, Rat is a conspiracy theorist who has accused those that have argued against him of being part of ‘the conspiracy’.

He’s accused many other people and institutions of being part of ‘the conspiracy’ and he seems to be talking of a vast conspiracy involving hundreds, thousands or more people, he’s said in the past that he believes any organisation can be infiltrated and subverted by the same conspiracy.

But if you actually look at his ‘evidence’ it only ever seems circumstantial, based on innuendo, supposition and opinion.

So how is the conspiracy to be ‘rooted out’?

For example to these types of conspiracy theorists all socialist thought is an invention of ‘the conspiracy’ and anyone promoting such ideas is by definition either a member of it or a lackey.

How are socialists to be dealt with?

As far as I can tell Rat seems to believe that they will just all ‘see the light’ and stop being socialists but what about the ones that didn’t?

Now remember that the Nazis had the same problem, they thought socialists were lackeys of the conspiracy holding back German greatness (and they voted against the Enabling Act that set up the Nazis dictatorship) so under them socialists were, at first, rounded up and put in jail or sent to concentration camps to be re-educated, later they were just murdered.

Now I’m not saying that the Rat-like would have socialist murdered but they do believe that if ‘the conspiracy’ isn’t stopped the world will become a ‘fascist’ global government under the control of a Lucifer worshipping elite.

And if someone truly believes in such a thing what lengths would they go to save the world?

Anyway as pointed out the American right have been suppressing left wing thought and ideas for years (explained in more detail here - http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=4525263#post4525263)

And during the left wing witch hunts, left wing idea were basically labelled ‘un-American’ and so many innocent people were persecuted based on nothing more than innuendo, supposition and opinion, the very same ‘evidence’ people like Rat put forward as proof of ‘the conspiracy’.

 

Yes it’s back and I hope you remember what you put because these are the my replies to your posts –

Garderner – I don’t call rat a Nazi

Maryjohn - I don’t call rat a Nazi

Xexon - I don’t call rat a Nazi

Depoisoned – Actually rat and those like him criticise all those to the left of there own position which happens to include much of what others would call the Right – for example Rat has said that he thinks the neo-con republicans are too left wing.

Hanna – why?

Odon – I though more of you that this.

Aristartle – Did you read it or just react? If you did, please comment on what was said if you didn’t please do so.

Erzebet - Did you read it or just react? If you did comment on what was said if you didn’t please do so

Hiptastic – yes he does and are you going to reply to the other thread? http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=324569&f=36&page=9

Aristartle – you seem to be reporting the thread for being inappropriate, how is talking about politics on a politic forum inappropriate?

Gardener (again) I don’t call rat a Nazi, read what’s said not what you think was said.

Oden, at last, but what the does “perhaps indirectly” mean? That you’re unsure? That you don’t know? Then why not seek clarification rather jumping to conclusions?

**

 

Now I’m sorry that I wasn’t back sooner but the family and I have had a touch of the flu so I’d been off line for a few days. Oh and thank you to the person that sarcastically hinted that I hadn’t replied because I was…well what…too afraid…to ashamed…what?

But I must say I do love the way people jump to conclusions because they don’t actually read what has been written.

Did anyone read the linked thread? - Why do the national libertarians keep reminding me of the Nazis?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=104835

Clearly not many of you including Rat who quaintly accuses me of not knowing what a national socialist is. (try reading post 13 - http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=1540460&postcount=13

But then people made the same mistake back in 2005 for the same reasons – they didn’t read what was written.

I pointed out very clearly in the other thread as I did in this one that it was the methodology that seemed similar NOT the ideology but people jump right on in and started shouting about me accusing Rat and what I call ‘national libertarians’ of being Nazis.

Do you know the difference between methodology and ideology?

I know that most of you are not dumb so I believe you do – so ask yourselves why did so many of you make the mistake?

And I also noticed that although many became indignant at what I didn’t say no-one seems to have addressed what I did say, may I ask why you did that?

Normally I would have picked up on the mistake straight away and corrected it but since I was in my sick bed I wasn’t here and its been rather instructive, a conclusion was made, it wasn’t corrected by me so people ran with it and then no-one else corrected it so it continued to run, in the end only one person picked up on the mistake and even he didn’t think to ask for clarification, and complaints were made on the strength of a misinterpretation that wasn’t even checked up on, it seems I was tried, convicted and hung without a word being allowed in my own defence?

**

The problem is that the charges against me and the post don’t even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.

The main complain is that the post was a personal attack

So please go back and read and ask yourselves do I attack Rats character or intelligence or personal hygiene?

Or am I attacking his politics and the methods by which he spreads those views and ask questions about what political policies he’d follow?

Do I call him a Nazi?

NO, I do not, in fact I’ve pointed out many times that he’s not a National Socialist, that he’s a national libertarian.

And I noticed many years ago (when rat was openly rather than covertly libertarian) what Depoisoned noticed – that many of the ways national libertarian’s like Rat were pushing their ideas were very similar to those used by the early Nazis party – and I wrote the - Why do the national libertarians keep reminding me of the Nazis?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=104835

**

Now that the hysteria is past lets actually debate what was said can we?

 

Okay.

i give up.

Why do National Libertarians (like Rat) keep reminding you of Nazis?

 

Fyrenza, so did you read - Why do the national libertarians keep reminding me of the Nazis?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=104835

 

i was joking around with you!

 

I confess. I never really read more than a line or two of your posts. If my name wasn't in the first line I would have scrolled and scrolled and scrolled as I always have to do to get to the next post.

 

Fyrenza – sorry there – but as you may imagine, since so many didn’t seem to read the original post (as Depoisoned admits) I found it hard to notice your irony.

 

Wow, man ~ Americans must seem really weird to you, 'eh?

i see the humor in a LOT of things, and i enjoy posting, so i joke around quite a bit!

 

You mean the seeming ability to read what isn’t there because they didn’t actually read it? -)

 

Exactement!

 

... sigh.....:beatdeadhorse5:

 

You seemed to be taking a long convoluted path to just really calling Rat a Nazi.
That's all.
I know you did not directly say that.
It seemed you were indirectly saying that.

It doesn't matter if you were actually saying: "methodology that seemed similar NOT the ideology".
If you said to anybody comparing Bush/Nazi : Do you think Bush would send x million people to gas chambers?
What do you think they would say?
Yes?
No?
Well, not directly his (Bush) methodology is different, but he has killed just as many innocent people blah blah blah.
What does that then boil down too?
They are both as bad and evil as each other and are willing to kill x million of people..
Hitlers METHODS were distinct lets remember - so the comparison falls down straight away as I am quite sure Rat does not want to kill anybody.

I don't care if you just think they both walk the same.
I just find ANY comparision as bad as each.
And it seems the broad perceptions are what matters not the specific details.


To be honest, I could agree with you on some level.
But lets remember Rat sits at a computer and pours this out.
All this is a internet based intelectual arguement.
In effect he is completely harmless, unlike the Nazis.
You also miss out swathes of what the Nazis did.
That I am sure you would not dream of comapring.
So, why comapre a portion and not the whole?
IMO because it is offensive to do so.

 

SO....

interesting article on Bob Barr in the New Yorker...

 

It is a fallacy the way Pressed_rat executes some of his ideas to a certain extent. It's disappointing to see us continually posting about it however.

 

... as in Bob Barr, the republican turned Libertarian.

 

I am not a libertarian, so I don't know what you are talking about.

 

Carl

You claimed the original post was a personal attack, but you don’t seem to be able to back that up, so why did you claim it?

Anyway I like your flogging a dead horse icon but actually this has significance beyond this thread and to the forum as a whole.

One of the most important things about debate is that people listen or read what the other person says and if they don’t understand something or is unsure what’s being said they seek clarification.

That didn’t happen, its clear that many people who made comments hadn’t actually read the posts, instead they jumped to unfounded conclusions and then tried to use those to have the thread closed.

Maryjohn

Do you mean – The Third Man: Bob Barr’s Libertarian run for the White House, by Raffi Khatchadourian
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/27/081027fa_fact_khatchadourian

Because I didn’t think it said much can you say why the article you read was interesting?

Anyway so did I call Rat a Nazi, as you seemed to claim?

**

Aristartle

You tried to have this thread pulled because you thought it ‘inappropriate’.

Now you are agreeing with it but just don’t think it worth pursuing.

Which is it?

**

Rat

No, you just tell people you are not a right wing libertarian while pushing right wing libertarian ideas and posting such things as videos from right wing libertarians that promote right wing libertarian websites.

**

 

lol

 

Thank you Odon,

You seem to be the only person willing to explain your comments.

However I’m sorry to say you don’t seem to have read the posts.

First it is not so much about Rat the individual but the Rat-like, the national libertarian leaning viewpoint, Rat is used more as an example of that ‘movement’.

Also in the thread - Why do the national libertarians keep reminding me of the Nazis?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=104835

None of the things I mention as similarities were about the use of violence or killing people; they were about presentation, the way they promoted themselves to gain influence.

And lastly, you talk of the other things done by the Nazis, but when?

We can look back at history, but we cannot look into the future. In 1919 the German Workers' Party had seven members and there were people then, not knowing what the future would bring, that dismissed Hitler and his six friends as powerless cranks.

Remember just because a movement or idea seems harmless when it doesn’t have influence that doesn’t mean that situation might not change - back “In the wake of the Great Depression and the second world war, with the Keynesian revolution still young, championing the free market was deeply unfashionable, even (or especially) among economists. Mr Friedman and kindred spirits—such as Friedrich von Hayek, author of “The Road to Serfdom”—were seen as cranks.” [The economists]

And the ideas of Leo Strauss, the bed rock of neo-conservatism, were once assigned to the intellectual backwater.

I could go on and on – of ideas and views that some thought were harmless, cranky or purely intellectual arguments that later gained much greater significance or power.

I don’t know what the future will bring, the right wing libertarian movement might just fizzle out or remain in relative obscurity but should I dismiss the dangers I see in it because of that?

I may be tilting at windmills.

But I’ll ask you this which faction within the Republican Party and on the right could gain most from any decline in the influence of the neo-conservative elements?

Possibly a group that present themselves as being against foreign entanglements, of not believing that security overrides personal rights and although still in favour of a free market, make a lot of noise against what they call ‘corporate welfare’.

Now I’m not saying right wing libertarians will be sending truck loads of lefties to re-education camps as the early Nazis did when they gained power, but can you honestly tell me that there have never been political witch hunts undertaken in the US?

And as pointed out people like rat do believe and promote the idea that left wing ideas are part of ‘the conspiracy’ and that if that conspiracy isn’t stopped the world will become a ‘fascist’ global government under the control of a Lucifer worshipping elite.

And if someone only half believes in such a thing do you think they would oppose or support an anti-left political witch hunt?