The Bush Family/Nazi Connection

you see what you want to see.

You and duckandmiss make a loose claim that "because his grandfather had shitty ethics, that means bush more than likely will have shitty ethics.' That is a weak and unfounded argument.

To compare what prescott bush did that was *illegal* and in violation of the trading with the enemy act to what this bush did is insane and a far cry from being the same. What stake does bush himself have in haliburton? How exactly has HE benefited from haliburton getting the contract? Again, you are comparing something that is illegal to something that isnt.

 

Good lord, you act like I'm going around town saying "Bush's grandad supported Nazi's so don't support Bush!"

Get it through your head that this is not what I am saying.

Please stop twisting my words around. If I thought Bush was a good president and made ethic decisions than I would realize that his ethic is not similar to his grandfather. But this is just not the case.

In my opinion, Bush DOES have shitty ethics. And this article opened my eyes to maybe why he is the way he is, and why he makes the choices he does.

And Megara, what makes you think that you have more of a right to express your opinion than anyone else? You troll around these forums talkig like your word is from god himself. You aren't here to discuss politics and learn about other's points of view. You seem to be here because this is a more liberal forum, and you want to tear into anyone that has soemthing against Bush.

You don't even try to fully understand what anyone is trying to say, you just post the same crap worded differently, no matter how much anyone tries to explain their point of view to you.

And what Bush has done isn't *illegal*?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3661134.stm
"The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter. "

Oh, and also, Cheney benefits from Halliburton. Bush lets him. You don't think that there wasn't a bit of conflict of intrest letting the VP's company profit off of the war? Isn't it a little too convienent? There are plenty other orginizations across the globe that could have handeled the task. And I bet we could find one who isn't ignoring sanctions over in Iran as well.

 

I am so hesitant to respond to this because you keep turning my words into an extreme anti Bush bashing which Im not, I dont think this is a big big issue but I surely consider it important and not somethign to be swept under the rug because of the potential.

Modern Psycology is not conspiracy theory, have you ever taken a basic psychology class? It teaches us that
Moral development

Moral development also follows a pattern. In the early stages, the child simply tries to avoid punishment. An older preschooler proceeds through a very self-centered stage with decisions based on self-satisfaction and "what's in it for me" actions. In later stages, children develop a greater concern for being "good" and doing what is socially acceptable.

Now, If my grandfather was a very violent man, and molested my father there are proven pyschological statistics that say the father has a greater chance of abusing the son, continuing the cycle.

Now, being a Nazi why is it so much of stretch to belive that some of the same values that allowed Presscott to justify his Nazi Oppurtunism may have been passed onto the son?

Because you did not make the same choice in organized religions is not that strong. How many times has an aunt said, Oh you sound like your mother when you do that? These things do get trannsferred. We are not talking just about choices made but your whole moral fiber.

We are not talking about his bad dealings, we are talking about poor morals. He has a stronger chance of getting some poor morals than someone whose grandfather was not a Nazi opportunist, the possibility is there and it is strong. Ron is alot like his father but leans a bit farther to left than him, that doesnt help your point it further proves mine, I dont understand!

Yes it is.

I believe otherwise, and I can back that up. (and have)

 

yawn, your hate gets old fast.

Do you not even understand what you are saying. You continually point the source of bush's ethical problems to those which his grandfather had.

I am hardly a defender of bush, i am against him on most issues. I am more against people making idiotic claims such as this one, though.

Heck, i am not even defending bush's ethics. I am attacking yours and others flawed argument for why bush's ethics are shit.

Please, you dont know me, so dont even try to label me as you've labeled bush and others. Your stereotyping is disgusting.

Also, you might want to check resolution 1483, giving the US and britain control of the country until a recognized government could be formed(this has happened already).

As for annan's quote. Lets remember, as i said in the thread based specifically on this, Annan called a war on genocide illegal also. A war on genocide illegal? excuse me while i dont give a flying shit about what kofi annan says about the legality of the war.


Last i checked, Cheney stepped down from control of haliburton bfore he assumed his role as vice president, so its hardly his company.

Please, list all the companies that are capable of dong the same job as haliburton(i know they exist) and then limit them to just the US and her allies who fought in the war.

 

What in the world are you talking about, Sera Michelle didnt seem to be attacking you at all there is not hate, jsut befuddlement why you think psycology is conspiracy theory.

Um and Cheney still is one of the largest stock owners in that company.

 

This is the question at hand.

Moral development

Moral development also follows a pattern. In the early stages, the child simply tries to avoid punishment. An older preschooler proceeds through a very self-centered stage with decisions based on self-satisfaction and "what's in it for me" actions. In later stages, children develop a greater concern for being "good" and doing what is socially acceptable.

Now, If my grandfather was a very violent man, and molested my father there are proven pyschological statistics that say the father has a greater chance of abusing the son, continuing the cycle. In that house it would be seen as socially acceptable to be violent and molest.

Now, why is it so much of stretch to belive that some of the same values that allowed Presscott to justify his Nazi Oppurtunism may have been passed onto the son?

 

"nd Megara, what makes you think that you have more of a right to express your opinion than anyone else? You troll around these forums talkig like your word is from god himself. You aren't here to discuss politics and learn about other's points of view. You seem to be here because this is a more liberal forum, and you want to tear into anyone that has soemthing against Bush.

You don't even try to fully understand what anyone is trying to say, you just post the same crap worded differently, no matter how much anyone tries to explain their point of view to you.
"

hrmm, yes, thats a very pleasant thing she said..


i'm kinda confused how we switched from george bush to dick cheney. Yes cheney has stock in the company and even receives a pension from them.


You all refuse to answer my question. If bush learned his shitty ethics from his grandfather, are we to assume that the grandson of a racist will too be a racist?

 

because you cant say that for certain, which is exactly my point. Are all kids who grew up to abusive families abusive? Nope, most ARENT! Now try checking for abusive grandfathers and whether their grandsons are abusive. I bet you'll find almost NO link.


edit: the abusive link isnt even a fair comparison. Physical abuse is something that you can measure. What life skills and ethical skills prescott bush taught papa bush and then littel bush is a mystery to everyone but those involved, which none of us are. To infer that this is the same thing is flat out WRONG

 

Ya well so does yours. You know this is a liberal forum when you come here. You never expected us to like Bush.

Yes I do. Is that so wrong? Study some psychology and learn about the role parents have on their children when raising them.

What? A claim that families don't influence their children? George Bush would be a totally different person had he been from a different family. Do you disagree with that?

So I have bad ethics for discussing Bush's family ties and how they may have affected his politics respectivly, on a political forum?

I didn't label you, not any more than you did calling me unethical

Yeah, we will just let Bush make up his own rules to follow...in that case nothing he ever does will be illegal.

It wasn't my job to hand out the contracts. And you actually mean to tell me that you think that Halliburton was the only company capable of the work, and that the ties to Cheney and the fact that he's profiting, is just coincidence? I mean, it got a no-bid contract for god's sake.

 

No, just have similar political ethics. Especially since this family is set out to raise their children to be politicians.

 

Um....why is this so hard for you to understand.

What life skills the Bush's taught eachother IS a mystery to me, but all we have been saying is that we see the same sort of unethical politics in his grandfathers, fathers, and his own choices.

 

where the hell did i call you unethical? I said i was attacking 'Yours and others FLAWED ARGUMENTS"


"You aren't here to discuss politics and learn about other's points of view. You seem to be here because this is a more liberal forum, and you want to tear into anyone that has soemthing against Bush."

yes, you didnt label me, my bad.

I see the problem here, you arent reading what i am writing.

"Please, list all the companies that are capable of dong the same job as haliburton(i know they exist)"

Does that sound like i said no companies in the world could do the job other than haliburton?


Yes, families do influence children, but that doesnt mean they are created the same way. The flaw in your argument is simple to point out. You yourself said you were raised as a methodist, are you a religious person? Nope, I was raised as a catholic, i am not a catholic. Are people who are raised by racists automatically racists? Nope.

Heck, you're making a huge assumption that prescott bush's work ethics played a part in how he raised his kid. Furthermore, you make the assumption that father bush used these ethics to raise george bush. Your reasoning is flawed at every level. You can continue to assert this all you want, but you have no proof or anything to back up anything you say, you just have assumptions.

 

what prescott bush did was against US law. Please show me what george bush did that was agaisnt US law.

 

The odds of learning behavior through a parent skyrockets through the roof, so yes. Kids that are abused are so insanely likely to be abusive to their own kids, statistically, that this argument is moot, as has been stated.

 

i'd love to see the statistics that 'insanely likely' to show abusive kids are formed from abusive fathers. edit: what exactly is insanely likely btw?


As i stated above, there is a difference: you can measure physical abuse. 1) you can be sure that it actually happened. 2) it happens on a far greater level than just about anything else. Physical abuse is intensely traumatic and personal. I'd much prefer to see statistics on taught behaviors, than illegal acts inflicted on a children.

But again, you have to make assumptions for any of the arguments put forth to work..sorry, but i dont live on assumptions, i like facts.

BTW, i hope you dont judge kids by their parents, thats mighty unfair of you.

 

OMG, this is stupid. Pages and pages, and you want to completely ignore any reason here.

We aren't saying to judge all kids by their parents, or that all abusive parents for sure make abusive children, or anything like that.

We see the choices Bush has made politically, and his father, and now this article on his grandfather. AND in my opinion, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Not because what Bush could or might do politically, but what he has already done politically.

Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

I am not judging anyone on the actions of their family. I was pointing out what I saw to be a trend.

And if you want to learn more about taught behaviors, take a psychology class.

 

If there is a pattern of racism shown in grandfather, then in father, then it can be said that the son was exposed to racism and has a greater chance to be racist than if the grandfather was not racist.

If your grandfather was a Nazi profiteer, and the father makes alot of money dealing with saudis through the Carlyle group, and now the son looks like he favors his vice president's company.... then I can state that look, his grandfather was a Nazi Profiteer, that may have some bearing on Bush Jr. dealings with corporations now.

 

If you want to learn the facts take a Psych class. How can anyone educate you on this subject over the internet.

 

its easy to end right here.


Prescott bush violated US law, that is why what he did was unethical.

If you two want to argue that george bush is unethical, please show me what US law he violated.

Then we can talk about whether he acquired his illegal activity from his grandfather.

 

First of the original question dealt with Prescott Bush, not with George Bush and his illegal activities (like his drunk driving... do I need to document that or do you think you could look that up?) And now you want to avoid that.

Second Sera Michelle already posted the Anna article to back up her claims about George Bush's illegal behavior, If you dont agree with Anna and the UN fine, Really that was a secondary issue and a sidenote to this conversation.


Is that a better ending?