Terrorists kill "innocent people?"

Discussion in 'America Attacks!' started by LaughinWillow, May 26, 2004.

  1. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

    I've been thinking about this concept lately - we hear all about how terrorists killed 3,000 "innocent" Americans on 9/11 or how Palestinian terrorists kill "innocent" Israeli citizens... But WHY are these people "innocent?"

    How can we, as Americans, claim we are "innocent" when WE elect our government, WE supposedly tell our government what to do, WE are complicit in our government's actions, WE support our ruling elite economically. Likewise, the Israelis tolerate their government's actions, which they also supposedly elect.

    I propose that NONE of us are "innocent" when we allow our government to terrorize the world and do nothing. NONE of us are "innocent" when we continue paying taxes, re-electing these bastards to abuse the TRULY innocent peoples of the third world, NONE of us are innocent when we keep fueling the economic system of this country - pumping money into goods produced with slave labor or in sweatshops or through oppression and death and misery. Why would terrorists view any of US as "innocent civilians?" We boast all the time about how "free" we are and how much "democracy" we have, so clearly WE THE PEOPLE are the guiltiest ones of all, according to our OWN ADMISSION!

    If we CLAIM to elect and control our government, my friends, NONE of us are "innocent civilians." We are all VALID TARGETS.
     
  2. the same could be said for people who dont rise up against dictators or kings or tyrannical governments that may not be voted for.

    the Iraqis could have risen against Saddam. The french did it...the british did...the colonialists did it.(rising against tyranny that is.)

    humans have been overthrowing tyranny for thousands of years.


    so are the people who dont rise up against people like Saddam or the chinese not waging a full scale rise against the government also exempt from innocent status??

    if going by your logic....then there are NO innocent victims in the world.
     
  3. oh wait.

    forget it..I just realized this was a Willow post.

    which means that everyone on else that are not Americans are innocent victims..including the doctors in China that are forcefully sterilizing women and their military which shoots "free-speakers" on a daily basis.

    if they died...they'd be innocent...but not Americans.:rolleyes:
     
  4. Maverick

    Maverick Banned

    You have got to be kidding me. You think America votes? 18 million people of the American population vote. America doesn't vote for anything. No one is guilty of anything becuase one out of thirty people vote.

    You're hatred for America based of fallible theories and idea's is digusting in it's own right. It's people like you who give America a bad name. You make us look bad, you are the peak of idealogy in the left field. You're not the majority, but you stand out the most, because your vile and rampant, and spread your tastless thoughts everywhere. You do nothing but degrade yourself with every word you spew.
    A women going to work is not innocent? A desk job is all she had, shuffling paperwork for her boss out of the cubicle she's accostomed to. Is she not innocent? She had no part in putting military bases in foreign nations. She didn't vote. Or the firefighters whom rushed into the blazing building reguardless of the cost? The aren't heores? They aren't innocent?
    Well Willow, I certainly hope that some one grabs you, and shakes you awake, because you certainly need it.
     
  5. Megara

    Megara Banned

  6. there's no way that nearly half of our population voted in that election.


    they were saying that it was a record low for voter turn out.

    this is why...all the voting people are pushing for a 20 million voting goal.


    last count I heard from people who actually work for the voting census say it was only about 18 million that voted.


    I dont know where your source got it's numbers from.
     
  7. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

    while i agree that these people were just people trying to get to work and live their lives as best they could, and were therefore innocent, not voting isn't really a point in their favor. had they been voting, policy may have been different over the years, and 9/11 and the previous wtc bombing wouldn't have happened. maybe. more than likely it woulda been the same. people, even government people, are stumbling through this making bad and good decisions, but sometimes there's no way of knowing if a decision was a bad one until after the fact.
     
  8. showmet

    showmet olen tomppeli

    These people are innocent because they are civilians going about their daily lives, not combatants in a war. It's against international law for those not involved in a conflict to be targeted. Similarly, the military are required to avoid civilian casualties at all costs. Failure to do this is what makes Israel a "terrorist state".

    3,000 innocent Americans died on September 11th 2001. In the wars of retaliation, how many innocent civilians have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq? I don't know the figures. We have an official policy of not counting the innocent foreigners we kill. 20,000? 30,000? With the long term effects of Depleted Uranium, we can add tens of thousands more. Tragedy compounding tragedy.
     
  9. the thing about Al-qaeda is that it isnt just about politics with them.

    The US government could have been the sweetest most giving non-intrusive government ever.

    we could have had the Dalai Lama as president and 9-11 would have still happened.

    why? because Al-Qaeda made it clear that this isnt just about military presence or any of that.


    It's Jihad....a holy war. according to their interpretation of the Q'uaron...Muhammed cannot return to earth until all the infidels are dead or converted. They believe that God has ordered them to kill all westerners to make the Earth fit for the prophet.when the USA is weakened..their armies will rise for full scale invasions.


    you cant fight religious extremism...they will come and kill and exist for as long as their religion exists.

    and their religion isnt Islam....it's a warped version of Islam much like the warped Christianity preached by Jerry Falwell who believes that the black man was put on earth for slavery by God.
     
  10. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    TRULY innocent peoples of the third world,
    at the moment in sudan you have slavery and genocide no one cares because the people doing it are the "truely innocent people of the third world"

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/editor/story/0,12900,1223070,00.html

    this kind of thing is pretty normal around the world and unless white people are involved gets hardly any media coverage
    the media accepts a lower standard of behavior from non white people generally seeing them as victims or naturally savage

    what happens in Isreal gets lots of coverage because the country contains white people if it was black on black or brown on brown violence or lets say muslim on muslim it would get hardly any coverage
    this is racism
     
  11. Megara

    Megara Banned

    its not nearly half...its like 35-38% percent...and thats how many voted in the 2000 election... *shrugs*
     
  12. but one could ask...


    are the peoples of the third world truly victims?

    they have land to produce food..animals to hunt...they allowed people to take power of their countries and throw them into civil war.

    instead of trying to become self-suffient...they are overcome with greed and violence...they kill each other rather then unite to survive and thrive.


    I mean look at Japan...they are an ancient civilization...they have survived war after war....occupations...invasions...they survived two big-ass bombs..

    and instead of going into this state of chaos and killing and hording and pillaging eachother...they continued to rebuild and push forward.


    Japan is now easily one of the richest countries in the world. actually the entire western world would be lost with Japanese technology and advances.

    Their country and culture is beyond rich in so many ways.



    so one has to wonder who is really keeping 3rd worlds in the 3rd world.


    the evil west? or the people themselves who'd rather fight and kill each other then figure out how to rebuild and create their own invaluable economy.

    sometimes things are not so black and white.
     
  13. there are about 300 million people in the USA according to the census.

    and if half of 300 million is 150 million and 100 million voted in the 2000 election that would mean...nearly half of the population voted in that election.


    yet every other source states that only about 18 million voted.
     
  14. showmet

    showmet olen tomppeli

    This is a garbage argument ... nobody is suggesting that those who commit genocide are innocent, and I don't believe Willow was doing that. Saddam Hussein was certainly not innocent, but that doesn't make our killing of 10,000 innocent Iraqis any more palatable, even if Saddam is now gone.

    Unfortunately some people feel the need to take sides, defending some atrocities while expressing outrage about others. This is the problem.
     
  15. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

    The point here is that people in "democracies" are clearly NOT innocent if they are ALSO going to claim to elect the people who are committing atrocities. This is the supposed difference between democracies and dictatorships. We supposedly have the ability to force our lawmakers to do the right thing WITHOUT waging war against them, ending up being tortured in prison, living in constant civil war for the next 20 years, and all the other ways people in the third world would have to suffer to get political change in THEIR countries.

    Unless someone is just going to admit that we don't REALLY have control over the ruling elite, and they are going to do as they please no matter what we say.

    As it is, if we are going to CLAIM to be a democracy, we can't also CLAIM innocence when our government or military commits atrocities around the world. I'm not saying that an American woman in an office DESERVES to be killed - I'm saying she is not just some "innocent victim" - IF she lives in a democracy. Maverick, if we have the RIGHT to vote and the OPPORTUNITY to vote and we DON'T - and we then permit the ruling elite to continue terrorizing people around the world, how does this make one "innocent?"
     
  16. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

    BWAH. And by the way, idiot, I don't need to say ONE WORD to make you people look bad - you do it very well on your own. The WORLD thinks you are the greatest threat to peace and prosperity on the planet. And they're RIGHT. Listen to you - accusing me of being "vile" and "disgusting" as you cheer the slaughter of women and children, the torture of thousands, the misery of the third world... The world sees through your jingoistic garbage every time. It's really pretty pathetic.
     
  17. Sera Michele

    Sera Michele Senior Member

  18. that's the fallacy of democracy Willow.


    we really dont have a say..and someone tries to...they "disappear".

    we can vote all we want and all it proves is that we dont have a say in shit.


    and we can vote for a guy who says one thing to get voted then does the opposite in office.

    Bush did that....He claimed his focus was gonna be strictly on improving education and the economy.his platform was 90% domestic.

    Now look?? he doesnt give a shit about domestic issues...he cares more about Iraq then he does about the USA and that sucks big time.he wants tot spend $87 billion on Iraq but only $20 billion on american schools?????and he keeps tax-breaking the big corporations.



    The american people think we have a say and by golly we need to vote nd atleast get Bush out of office....that's the extent of our power in our great democracy.


    Bush has proven that he wont buckle to public dissapproval..that polls and bad media dont scare him or deter him.

    He has taken away our only sources of power as a people.


    with that said.....Americans can be victims as much as anyone.
     
  19. Kid? I'm older then you.

    and I dont watch MTV. why do they say something on there when they aret showing Jackass or some program with a bunch of dysfunctional strangers crammed into a house?


    I remember when MTV used to be videos...endless streams of glorious music videos with bad hair and spandex.
     
  20. seamonster66

    seamonster66 discount dracula

    Quote: we can't also CLAIM innocence when our government or military commits atrocities around the world.


    I don't know about you, but I am unable to read peoples minds, therefore I did not know 9-11 would happen, and that Bush would invade Iraq. I consider myself innocent. I just live in a country that i was born in, and go about my daily business without harming anyone else.

    If you want to put the entire weight of the world on your shoulders, go ahead. I will not take responsibility for something I have no part of, and didn't support.

    Maybe you should actually get out and do something against the US government instead of condemning all Americans on the internet.

    I know a lot of Americans, obviously, and not one that I know cheers violence or the mistreatment of others.
     

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