I'm interested to hear what you guys think about this ~ do you think they should give her her feeding tube or let her die? http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/ On the one hand she can starve to death, on the other hand she can have her feeding tube and stay in a vegetative state..
I posted a thread about this in Random Thoughts.... http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75767
"When will the bitch die?" A quote from her husband. She is NOT in a vegetative state! AFFIDAVIT STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says: 1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge. 2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years. 3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April of 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there. 4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as extremely odd. 5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as "This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting. 6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy. 7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper. 8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that. 9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include "Can't you do anything to accelerate her death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter. 10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!," and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things. 11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting. 12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as "They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact that it didn't seem to attract any attention. She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat." 13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him. 14. While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal safety. This was due to Michael's constant intimidation, including his menacing body language, vocal tone and mannerisms. 15. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known. FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT. CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N. The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of September, 2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida driver's license as identification, and who did / did not take an oath. http://www.rense.com/Datapages/terrydata.htm May I make suggestion? dont' beleive cnn news. in otherwords "the pentagon press".
Let her fucking DIE!!! God, this should not even be a fucking issue. Fifteen fucking years! This entire thing is beyond ridiculous.
Let her fucking die? Like this? NO! If one tried to let a prisoner, who commited atrosities die in this manner, it would be considered cruel and unusual. Why should this womyn, who never harmed anyone (and whose husband wants his life insurance payment) die in such way? TORTURING this womyn is ridiculous. Here is what dehydration is like. Doctor describes process of dehydration "What will probably kill Terri is dehydration because it's much quicker than starvation," Stevens said. "To starve to death takes eight to 12 weeks. You can die of dehydration in anywhere from three to five days to two weeks." Stevens said the amount of fluids in Terri's system when her gastrostomy or "feeding tube" was removed and whether she receives any fluids by mouth will determine how long she lives. Initial effects of the lack of hydration will include: Extreme thirst; Nausea and cramping; Dry skin, becoming wrinkled as fluids are drawn from the skin to hydrate the organs. "She's likely to become dizzy and begin to have cramping in her arms and legs. That's because her electrolytes, her sodium, potassium and other electrolytes in her blood start getting out of whack because of lack of fluids." Terri's body will experience other effects due to the forced dehydration that many might not have been considered. "She'll see decreased secretions. If she tries to cry, she won't be able to make tears very well, if at all," Stevens said. "Her mouth will become dry and saliva thick. You can have cracking of the [mucous membranes] of the mouth and lips as they dry out." Those external symptoms of dehydration are accompanied by internal effects, as well. "People often get headaches, then [become] lethargic and finally go into coma," Stevens continued. "It actually can cause seizures. "As it progressively gets worse, what happens [are] the physical signs. Her blood pressure will drop, her heart rate will pick up. She'll actually, ultimately go into shock," Stevens explained. "You just don't have enough fluid to keep your blood pressure up, and it drops so low, and that sometimes can be a terminal event, or an arrhythmia of her heart. "Her blood will get thicker," Stevens continued. "Sometimes, people who are severely dehydrated will actually have strokes just because the blood gets so thick that it clots. It's not a pretty picture." Which of these symptoms Terri experiences and to what degree will depend on whether the hospice staff makes any attempt to hydrate her by mouth and whether she is offered any pain medication. "If they sedate her, she could be semi-conscious or unconscious while this is going on," Stevens said. "It's not a very pleasant experience Stevens explained that he had "had a little bit of experience" in this particular field "since I worked in Africa for 11 years with severely dehydrated people, especially kids." Starvation, Stevens said, is not really an issue for Terri. "It's a long process that, depending on what condition people are in when it begins, determines how long it's going to take," Stevens said. "But if you're not getting fluids, it's academic interest. Before you starve to death, you'll die of dehydration." ….. "Death by dehydration is a painful, agonizing and arduous process that takes 10 to 14 days. "In addition to feeling the pangs of hunger and thirst, the skin, lips and tongue crack. The nose bleeds because of the drying of the mucus membranes. Heaving and vomiting may ensue because of the drying out of the stomach lining. The victim may experience seizures. "As the fluid level in the body goes down, the blood pressure goes down and the heart rate goes up. Respiration often increases as blood is shunted from the periphery to the central part of the body in a desperate attempt to sustain the primary organs. The hands and feet become extremely cold." This is the fate of Terri Schiavo. Dr. Jane Orient with the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, or AAPS, claims: "Dehydration is a cruel, painful death." "It is unconscionable that the state ordered removal of her feeding tube in the first place –" maintains Orient. "She is not dependent on advanced medical interventions. Nothing is mechanically pumping her blood, or forcing oxygen into her lungs. She is simply being fed through a gastrostomy tube." Would we allow a retarded child to be starved to death?" queries Orient. Multiple physicians solicited by the Schindlers believe Terri, who vocalizes, laughs and appears to respond to her parents, could be rehabilitated to some extent. Some have even offered pro bono treatment, even though Michael Schiavo was awarded nearly $1.5 million dollars in malpractice suits to pay for Terri's rehabilitation and nursing expenses shortly after her mysterious collapse at home in 1990 during which oxygen was cut off to her brain for several minutes. during court testimony last year, Victor Gambone, Terri's attending physician hired by Michael Schiavo in 1998, testified he was unsure whether his patient had even had her teeth cleaned in recent years and said she hadn't received therapy. He said he accepted Michael Schiavo's word that therapy had been deemed unnecessary. "Although severely disabled, some believe that she does have the capacity to communicate a desire to live. The husband has obstructed efforts at rehabilitation or independent assessments of his wife's true state," continues Orient. the family has been blocked by Michael Schiavo from visiting Terri at Morton Plant Hospital in Clearwater, Fla., where she was transferred. "And the ethical question for all of us is whether we will allow the state to obstruct the efforts of people who want to provide medical care to a patient who wants to receive it," said Orient. "If we go down that path, who's to say what treatment the state will prevent you from getting?" Would you want THIS to happen to you, simply because your husband (who has a girlfriend and a several children on the side) wants you dead, so he can collect insurance payments?
Didn't Hilter begin by KILLING the disabled? If this sets precedence, who is next. Kids with autism? THink about it.
Didn't Hilter begin by KILLING the disabled? If this sets precedence, who is next. Kids with autism? Folks with MS? THink about it.
Maggie and Leigh: I couldn't agree with you more. It is surprising and disturbing how many people think it's OK to just throw her away. You guys should check out this thread under "random thoughts". I got into the same argument re: hitler with some who thought it is perfectly acceptable that people who do not contribute to society (by their definition) should be killed. Then they got offended when I likened that sentiment to hitler's "euthanasia" policies. The culture of death is firmly entrenched, and we are all becoming disposable.
I agree the culture of death is implanted. A person would not get away with not giving a dog water without being thrown in jail for cruelty to animals. And this is a HUMAN BEING! I read the articles.... not once is mentioned on the abuse she received from her husband. broken bones in various stages of healing. From previous hospital records. She is only being given water. She tells her parents "help me"... she laughs. Even senator Frist of Tn, who was once a cardiologist has stated she is NOT in a vegetative state. I fear for our country. Kill the rest of the "useless eaters"...
And maybe that could be because there was no abuse? Or are you so into a mindset that it will not allow you to see that as a possibility? Links that will verifiy this, please? I've shown you mine. The Guardian Ad Litem was given judicial mandates to obtain any and all records from any source pertinent to this case. I find it very hard to believe that a charge of abuse or hospital records in support of an abuse claim would have escaped his notice. And how do you know this? She can't swallow water. She does not have enough cognitive ability to recognize that she is being given water and needs to swallow! She is incapable of speech. At most she can moan and grunt. This is not his specialization. He looked at a tape and based his opinion on that. I hope for your sake that your doctor employs better diagnostic procedure than that! I also find it troubling that you would latch onto something that a politician of his nature would say. He is only pandering to the social conservatives. He is going to run for president in 2008. I'll put money on it. His disingenuousness stinks like week old herring above the tide mark in the summer! I doubt whether you read the article and the PDF file at all. Or did you skip the parts that didn't support your pre-conceptions, i.e. all of it?
this is an extremely difficult case for me to decide. she grew up in the same county as me, so if they let her die, it will kind of feel like someone close to me died, even though she slipped into a comma before i was born. and her husband seems like a sleezy guy, because once she dies, he will remarry. then again, if she is isn't improving, then if might be time to let her go. i just wish that her parents would make that decision. but it is really hard on them. i just don't think that this should be a nation-wide issue. not to be mean or anything, but bush and her family say we should not starve her to death. but there millions of people all over the world who are starving and need water. there are even people in america who struggle to find food to eat. it has just exploded into mass chaos.
but also, why didn't her husband care about her early on, and confront her about her eating disorder. but it's been 15 years, and she still neads machines to nourish her. im no doctor, but that sounds like limited progress.
Garbage and bias. A continuation and rehash of mis-information. For example, the link titled "More Revealing Info About Mike Schiavo" has a reference to "the infamous Judge George Greer" in the first two sentences. Oh yeah, that's straight up. Additionally, there is a reference, in the same page, to "Dr. William Hammesfahr, Nobel prize nominee". This from the Wikipedia site's article on the case (another one of my links in a previous post that apparently isn't being investigated): "The credentials of the doctors under the employ of Mrs. Schiavo's parents is strongly questioned. One of their physicians is not trained or certified as a neurologist, and the other (Dr. William Hammesfahr, who is a certified neurologist) is a quack who was disciplined in 2003 by the Florida board of medicine for making false claims about an untested therapy developed by him (which he touted in 2001 to be effective in treating patients in a persistent vegetative state). Dr. Hammesfahr also falsely claimed and as of March, 2005 (when he appeared on Fox News's Hannity and Colmes and MSNBC's Scarborough Country) continues to falsely claim to be a Nobel Prize nominee (he was nominated by an ineligable nominator and his "nomination" never came before the Nobel committee).". I'm not comfortable with the word "quack" so I overlook it as I believe it shows a bias, but the rest of the quoted material puts the doctor in a questionable light at best. On the same it mentions the Michael Schiavo denied barium swallow tests to be performed. From the Guardian Ad Litem's report (the other link), page 28: "The recognized gold standard test is the modified barium swallowing test, generally done in a hospital or at a facility that has radiology equipment. Theresa’s three previous tests were barium swallowing tests." And still on the same page, this: "Michael continues to deny Terri the right to receive Holy Communion as part of her Catholic and civil rights." What is involved in receiving Communion? SWALLOWING!!! Which, as we all should know by now, is something she can not do. Sorry, leigh41663, but I have to call bullshit.
luvndrumm, what will you gain by letting this womyn be subjected to torture? Did YOU read what happens to a human when they are dying of thirst, or do YOU only read what already supports what you want to beleive? To be honest I don't give a FUCK what politicians are "for" or "against" keeping this womyn alive! I make decisions according to what I know to be RIGHT. And letting someone DIE OF THIRST is WRONG. Simply wrong. I don't care about Jeb Bush or the ACLU at this point. I don't want this womyn to suffer a horrible death. AND a "barium swallow test" can certainly be done on someone with a feeding tube. The barium is placed in the tube, or even injected into the mouth. Also, if she wanted communion (and I don't know how this figures into your rant) it could also be liquified and placed into her feeding supplement. I don't know what your point is in bringing up either of these things. Her husband denied her therapy from the very beginning, there is evidence that he wanted her dead from the beginning. He could have divorced her. But then the life insurance policy, which he has been waiting for, impatiently, all this time, would not go to him. He has a girl friend and a couple of kids with her, he HAS moved on. MONEY is the only reason he is still married to her. He also sued a few doctors and was awarded 1.5 million dollars for her care, most of which was NOT spent on Terri, none of which was spent on therapy. He wants to retain the Insurance money, AND the right to sue people left and right, once she is dead. He should certainly be denied a single penny for what has happened to this poor womyn. Ralph Nader was on CrossFire yesterday. He had a good solution. He agreed that the husband had a "conflict of interest" and had NO interest in what was best for Mrs. Shiavo, he suggested her parents be named her guardian, and let them take care of her. WHY would that be a problem. WHAT possible good could YOU see in having this person dead, of a horrible death? My personal opinion of Mr. Shaivo? I think he watched the Klaus Von Bulow trial and thought he could get away with it himself. And it looks like, like Klaus, he will.
ANYONE can place whatever they want on Wiki, I do not consider it a source of unbiased information in any case.
I will gain absolutely nothing. Your comment is highly inflamatory. I would prefer that our "enlightened" society give her the option of euthanization over what she is going through. And no, unlike you, I read everything. As has been administered three times to Mrs. Schiavo, which you would know if you had read the report of the Guardian Ad Litem. Evidence that you are guilty of what you accuse me of. Rant - again, inflamatory. The statement was in answer to a previous post with links to rense.com. The page I was commenting on made a point of saying that her husband was denying her the sacraments. My point was that her condition prohibits her from ingesting food and liquid - the body and the blood. I'm not Catholic so I don't know if the liquification of the sacraments is acceptable, nor do I know if her condition would accomodate this. Again further evidence that you did not read the report. Why? What evidence? I've shown you my links - show me yours that supports this allegation. And, please, try to find evidence that isn't tainted in agenda, bias, or pure balderdash, hmmm? Please read the Guardian Ad Litem's report. It addresses these very issues. An excerpt from the report, page 9: "Michael Schiavo, on Theresa’s and his own behalf, initiated a medical malpractice lawsuit against the obstetrician who had been overseeing Theresa’s fertility therapy. In 1993, the malpractice action concluded in Theresa and Michael’s favor, resulting in a two element award: More than $750,000 in economic damages for Theresa, and a loss of consortium award (non economic damages) of $300,000 to Michael. The court established a trust fund for Theresa’s financial award, with SouthTrust Bank as the Guardian and an independent trustee. This fund was meticulously managed and accounted for and Michael Schiavo had no control over its use. There is no evidence in the record of the trust administration documents of any mismanagement of Theresa’s estate, and the records on this matter are excellently maintained." From pages 10 - 11 of the same report (since very few here seem to want to take the time, as I have, to read it): "After the malpractice case judgment, evidence of disaffection between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo openly emerged for the first time. The Schindlers petitioned the court to remove Michael as Guardian. They made allegations that he was not caring for Theresa, and that his behavior was disruptive to Theresa’s treatment and condition. Proceedings concluded that there was no basis for the removal of Michael as Guardian. Further, it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as “a nursing home administrator’s nightmare”. It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa’s collapse, she has never had a bedsore. By 1994, Michael’s attitude and perspective about Theresa’s condition changed. During the previous four years, he had insistently held to the premise that Theresa could recover and the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care. This was in the face of consistent medical reports indicating that there was little or no likelihood for her improvement. In early 1994 Theresa contracted a urinary tract infection and Michael, in consultation with Theresa’s treating physician, elected not to treat the infection and simultaneously imposed a “do not resuscitate” order should Theresa experience cardiac arrest. When the nursing facility initiated an intervention to challenge this decision, Michael cancelled the orders. Following the incident involving the infection, Theresa was transferred to another skilled nursing facility. Michael’s decision not to treat was based upon discussions and consultation with Theresa’s doctor, and was predicated on his reasoned belief that there was no longer any hope for Theresa’s recovery. It had taken Michael more than three years to accommodate this reality and he was beginning to accept the idea of allowing Theresa to die naturally rather than remain in the non-cognitive, vegetative state. It took Michael a long time to consider the prospect of getting on with his life – something he was actively encouraged to do by the Schindlers, long before enmity tore them apart. He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating. But this was just prior to the malpractice case ending." Ralph Nader has as much insight into this case as Bill Frist has. Of course this didn't stop the good doctor from diagnosing Mrs. Schiavo's condition from afar nor does it seem to stop pundits from giving their opinions, which, somehow, seem to be taken as fact by those who share philosophies and/or ideologies. From the report, page 14: "Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive. Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery. There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it." Now I don't know about you, but I don't view this sort of mindset as helpful to or in the best interests of Mrs. Schiavo. What a clever way of turning me into the boogeyman. Do you write spin for the current administration? I doubt they could do much better. Well your personal opinion certainly is evident. And I appologize for confusing you with facts. Especially when your mind is already made up.
