* Do not say that you want to surrender. Just know that you already are surrendered. * A person who cannot surrender cannot be self reliant * When you are shaken, remember the foundation of responsibility is surrender. * The greatest power is in surrender, surrender to the Divine. -HIS HOLINESS SRI SRI RAVISHANKAR --- So here's the discussion topic... surrender or self-reliance? Which is better on the spiritual path...or do you need a little bit of both? Is this one of the messages that Lord Krishna tries to tell us in the Bhagavad-Gita? I would argue that you need to surrender and be devoted to even have the will power to work on the paths of karma, jnana, or raja yoga... that all need bhakti...and that all coexist...and you have to surrender in order to be self-reliant. Does that make sense? Tell me what you think.
Hare Krishna! Very good thread, dear. We will surely join giving views as per our understanding. Thank you. Love, Kumar.
Surrender? Why? I don't have a preference for surrender over no-surrender. What one needs to surrender is the false sense of "self".
Hello - You need both at different times. Christians say 'thy will be done' - that represents an attitude of surrender. Others, like Wiccans and Thelemites say 'do what you will'. In effect, both come down to the same thing in the end. The individual will can be brought into synch with the universal will of which it one expression. This process requires surrender of the surface will of the ego, which is largely an accretion built up through contact with the external world. However, at a deeper level, we all have our own inner will. It is the dynamic aspect of the godhead within. The complete universal will is expressed through many individual wills, which are all in harmony at a marcocosmic level, although they may be aimed in different directions here in the microcosm.
Yep that pretty much is what I think too. We need to surrender ourselves to be self reliant. For instance, if you want that A in the course, you surrender to God and start studying very hard. Surrender is also like a psychological barrier to feeling bad even if you don't get an A. Because , you realize that the result is dependent on God.
In my ISKCON years, I've heard the word "surrender" thousands of times. Personal practical experience is simply that when I try very hard to control the outcome of a situation, become frustrated...and then mentally step back, say a prayer and surrender both the process and the result to Krishna, while continuing my own efforts in a calmer state of mind...resolution always follows in due course of time.
Hare Krishna! Beautiful posts from Mandell, Snake Sedrick (Hi! ), Jedi, Brother Joseph and CCP ! CCP, so beautifully, says in one line that surrender is a leap into the light. Truly so. As long as the sense of aham (I) remains self-reliance remains, when the sense of Tunhun (YOU) comes... the surrender comes. This has been explained by Brother Joseph so nicely. Probably in other words Mandell said the same thing that the sense of the Self should go. As SS says rightly that both can go together. Both can go together when self-reliance (Sense of aham) recognizes surrender (The sense of Tunhun, YOU) and maintains the self-reliance to increase the sense of surrender. This is mostly the case with the PREMIs. They are surrendered to the LORD but the same time they keep the self-reliance alive. Worth mentioning here is the example of Ahalya and Rama or the example of two great surrendered devotees finding a tiger right infront in the dense jungle. While one stands there praying to the Lord to save them, the other one climbs upon a tree to make use of his hands and feet. He does not want to disturb or cause any pain to his Lord. As long as denying the Lila continues self-reliance continues when we recognize that everything is bound by His Lila then comes true surrender. Love, Kumar.
Kumar, may I ask - by .'premi' do you mean a follower of guru Maharaji, now called Prem Rawat, or is this word used with a wider connotation? Would I be right to assume that Premi means one with Prem or Love of the divine?
Hare Krishna! From Snake Sedrick.... Kumar, may I ask - by .'premi' do you mean a follower of guru Maharaji, now called Prem Rawat, or is this word used with a wider connotation? Would I be right to assume that Premi means one with Prem or Love of the divine? Dear Snake Sedrick, I am sorry for the confusion. It is not Prem Rawat, it is as you have mentioned ...Premi means one with prem or love of the divine. Prem is the highest level of love when you cannot do without your beloved, you see him in everything and everybody, you love him so much that you forget even yourself. In other words it is the stage when you start crying for him, the pain of not seeing him becomes unbearable. Love, Kumar.
Think: I am not the doer, but the intrument of the Doer (the Supreme, Krsna, Brahman, or whatever you name you like).
And I think that truly is thought that helps to understand how we may engage in all three yogas that Krishna talks about the Bhagavad-Gita. For you must be devoted and surrender first and foremost to start on a spiritual path (bhakti), you then do all your work as an instrument of the divine (karma) and then you realize that you are not "aham" but rather you are atman, you are one with Ultimate Reality (jnana).
Hare Krishna! From Nicole...... And I think that truly is thought that helps to understand how we may engage in all three yogas that Krishna talks about the Bhagavad-Gita. For you must be devoted and surrender first and foremost to start on a spiritual path (bhakti), you then do all your work as an instrument of the divine (karma) and then you realize that you are not "aham" but rather you are atman, you are one with Ultimate Reality (jnana). Dear, What you say is very nice and beautiful. But devotion and surrender both are very very difficult to do in practice. First of all faith is required and then love, then remember by japa, dhyana, etc. As we progress, our level of spiritual knowledge slowly increases and then only we tend to surrender. Lila and sense of Aham are such we never want to give in to hearsay things. That is why faith and practice is so important. Only when we know some facts for ourselves by our own efforts (He helps them who help themselves) and His Grace then we develop the quality of surrender. Love, Kumar.
Surrendering our false sense of "self", we surrender ego. We think nothing. We are not grasping or sticking to anything. It is not, "I am doing this" but instead, we realize that "this is happening through me".
Thats beautiful!, thats exactly the point I think. This life, this experience and everything we do I think is just happening through us... rather than we doing anything.
yeah...I don't think any of it is at all easy, like you said. I was just saying that I think that it is possible and that that is something that I think that Krishna is saying in the Bhagavad-Gita. Nothing comes overnight... we just have to work and work and then, with His Grace, as you say, we slowly understand...
