Support the Troops?

Discussion in 'Protest' started by skip, Jan 30, 2007.

  1. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    12,797
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    I believe it is very important that peaceful people NOT encourage or give any support to America's paid mercenaries.

    I don't mean just the guys at Blackwater, cause every American who today signs up for military service isn't doing it for love of their country or fear for our future. They are doing it for MONEY plain and simple. That and the promised education and benefits. Selfish greed, not patriotism is what really motivates these people.

    [​IMG]

    We should all be asking ourselves why it is that young people in this country feel they have so few options available for their future that becoming a mercenary seems such a viable (or deadly) option.

    Is it because the system has failed them? Because not getting into college and being unemployed or working at Walmart or McDonalds is the only future our society can offer?

    They now pay soldiers very good money, esp. if they end up on endless tours of Iraq (war zone pay). These soldiers put their lives on the line for MONEY. Just like every terrorist out there. Yes, terrorists get paid too. It's the same motivation, and politics really has little to do with it.

    They get bonuses for signing up to Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, etc., just like American soldiers get signing bonuses. Terrorists get money for every confirmed kill. They give money to suicide bombers families. It's all about fucking money.

    With these terrorists, they often have NO other choice to keep their families alive given the daily conditions they must live under.

    But with American mercenaries they DO have a choice, many in fact. They aren't so poor and hungry that killing makes sense for survival. Perhaps they feel this is the only way they can live the "American Dream" of two SUVs, and a big house in the suburbs.

    [​IMG]

    But as long as there are soldiers, and those paid to kill, there will be wars. And by encouraging, "supporting" and putting these guys on some sorta hero pedestal, we perpetuate the illusion that they are fighting for us, when in reality they are just paid mercenaries killing for money. That is how they should be treated. They SHOULD be reviled, not hailed.

    I've once again come around to the point we were at during the height of the Vietnam War. Once again I can understand why "hippies" and other war protesters would spit on soldiers.

    We are so blinded by the light of patriotism and nationalism, that we fail to see that by sending more boys off to war, we dig ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole.

    By GLORIFYING these merceneries, we set in motion the gears that will send another whole generation to war, and ensure that our country will continue to be viewed as a selfish aggressor on the world stage.

    While I could never bring myself to spit on a soldier, I understand the sentiment. It is not a personal act, but a symbolic one. And the sentiment behind it, is desperately needed if our country is ever again to be at peace.

    We must come to view soldiers the way we view war. They are part of the same system, a system which has learned NOTHING during my whole lifetime.

    We must not encourage these young people to go war. We must not glorify paid mercenaries. We must demand that our gov't provide young people equally lucrative, peaceful opportunities for those who need them. That is something worth fighting for, not an education, not a big bonus or the GI bill.

    [​IMG]

    Is it right to have to KILL to get an education?
    Is it right to have to KILL to get a decent job?
    Is it right to have to KILL to have a good future?

    This whole idea of "supporting" the troops is INSANE!

    It's nothing more than propaganda to keep the war machine humming without too much resistance from the homefront.

    What does supporting the troops mean? Obviously I don't send money to them. I don't send them cookies. I don't write them letters. What ARE we supposed to do to "support" these mercenaries, and why do we need to support these trained, paid killers at all?

    The idea of "supporting" the troops is a mental set that our gov't has imposed upon us to keep us from protesting the war. It's difficult for those who have wanted to protest the war to do it when there is so much pressure to "support" the troops.

    What we should be doing, is remember that these are PAID mercenaries, who've chosen this path. We need not "support" or even sympathize with them. They want money and are willing to KILL for it. In civil society we call these people criminals, murderers or psychopaths. Why do we glorify the mercenaries who do the same?

    We must come to the point of CONDEMNING those who become mercenaries. They should be pariahs, as indeed they were treated as such upon returning from the Vietnam war.

    But wait a minute... There was a big difference there. There were lots of mercenaries during the Vietnam war for sure. But by far most soldiers were drafted. They didn't have a choice. Many of them were in college trying to better themselves peacefully, and torn away from their studies, they were turned into killing machines for NO GOOD REASON.

    And let's not forget that this war in Iraq was started for NO GOOD REASON either. At first many of the soldiers were in the Nat'l guard or reserve. But now the new ones signing up are pure mercenaries.

    As long as young, impressionable kids think it's great to be a soldier, who think they'll get even more attention and respect by being soldier, the cycle will continue.

    As long as we continue to "respect" and "support" mercenaries, they will continue to attract more aimless kids into the military and private armies.

    When we cease to "respect" and "support" them, more and more kids will realize that being a soldier isn't automatically gonna make you a "hero". Perhaps when the spitting on soldiers starts again (if it ever was widespread - I doubt it), these kids will think twice about becoming paid mercenaries.

    So in reality it is OUR attitude towards the soldiers and the military that either perpetuates endless wars or finally brings us peace when there are no longer any kids willing to become mercenaries and cannon fodder...

    We must spread another mindset about soldiers that sees them as the paid mercenaries they truly are, and treats them accordingly. Should we respect paid mercenaries? She would honor them, give them medals, make them into heroes, so that another generation of young kids decides they too want to be tin soldiers?

    There will NEVER be peace so long as there are those who will kill and make war for money...

    ONE TIN SOLDIER
    (The Legend of Billy Jack)
    words and music by Dennis Lambert and Brian Potter
    Copyright © 1969 by ABC / Dunhill Music, Inc.

    Listen children to a story that was written long ago
    'bout a kingdom on a mountain and the valley folk below.
    On the mountain was a treasure buried deep beneath a stone,
    and the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own.

    Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend.
    Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end.
    There won't be any trumpets blowin' come the judgment day
    on the bloody morning after one tin soldier rides away.

    So the people of the valley sent a message up the hill
    asking for the buried treasure, tons of gold for which they'd kill.
    Came an answer from the kingdom: "With our brothers we will share
    all the secrets of our mountain, all the riches buried there."

    Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend.
    Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end.
    There won't be any trumpets blowin' come the judgment day
    on the bloody morning after one tin soldier rides away.

    Now the valley cried with anger; mount your horses, draw your sword,
    and they killed the mountain people, so they won their just reward.
    Now they stood beside the treasure on the mountain, dark and red,
    turned the stone and looked beneath it. "Peace on earth" was all it said.

    Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend.
    Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end.
    There won't be any trumpets blowin' come the judgment day
    on the bloody morning after one tin soldier rides away.
     
  2. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    Messages:
    33,922
    Likes Received:
    2,454
    Remember 'Universal Soldier' by Donovan, Skip? That's another song that will always ring true.

    He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
    He fights with missiles and with spears.
    He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
    He's Been a soldier for a thousand years.

    He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
    A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
    And he knows he shouldn't kill,
    And he knows he always will,
    Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

    And he's fighting for Canada,
    He's fighting for France,
    He's fighting for the USA,
    And he's fighting for the Russians,
    And he's fighting for Japan,
    And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

    And he's fighting for Democracy,
    He's fighting for the Reds,
    He says it's for the peace of all.
    He's the one who must decide,
    Who's to live and who's to die,
    And he never sees the writing on the wall.

    But without him,
    How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
    Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
    He's the one who gives his body
    As a weapon of the war,
    And without him all this killing can't go on.

    He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
    His orders come from far away no more,
    They come from here and there and you and me,
    And brothers can't you see,
    This is not the way we put the end to war.
     
  3. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    12,797
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Yup, Donovan put it well in that song... :)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. palaeopeasant

    palaeopeasant Banned

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    The brilliant antiwar song "Universal Soldier" was in fact written by Buffy Ste. Marie. Donovan's cover of it was beautiful, but he did not write it.

    I see some contradictions in the original post, where you vacillate between sympathizing with the economic forces which impel people to enlist, and blaming them for doing so. You accuse them of "greed". I would suggest that their motive could better be characterized as desperation.

    Take the example of the famous ex-prisoner of war Jessica Lynch. She entered the army to get money to pay for college so she could be a schoolteacher in West Virginia. This is GREED? Joining the Army was the only way she as a workingclass citizen of a small town (a town I know) could fulfill her dream of having a career which actually HELPED people.

    What is disgusting is not the motivation (even if it is blind patriotism...the patriotic urge is admirable even though often it is based on misinformation and a misguided sense of loyalties) of the soldiers but two other things for which they are not to blame: 1) the evolution of a society in which the military is the only way to avoid a lifetime of Walmart employment; and 2) the misuse of the USA military by corporate lackies like GW BUSH who put these mostly well-meaning VICTIMS (yes, the troops are VICTIMS of bad policy, just as were the troops in Vietnam) in harm's way to further the interests of his oil industry buddies and his own misguided megalomaniac urges for power.

    Blaming the troops will get you nowhere. The troops return, as they did from Vietnam, with many problems not of their own making. And attacking them verbally will get you NO support from the mainstream USA population. Do we wish to convince people and effectuate meaningful social change, or just take "more-radical-than-thou" poses which will impress our fellow hip college and college-dropout "radical" peers?

    Who is to blame? In the case of this current war, blame the myopic and heartless leaders who created and perpetuate the situation. Blame Saddam Hussein, GW Bush, D Rumsfeld, the petrobusiness fat cats who profit, etc.

    And keep in mind that as soon as either the economic or patriotic motivation to enlist is gone (the latter is fast disappearing for the Iraq war), they will be drafting YOU. And the deal is already done with Canada to prevent another exodus of draft resisters.

    I already paid heavily for my refusal to be drafted for the Vietnam War. But I cannot blame my peers who ended up in uniform. In the early days they were fooled by patriotic falderol...later they had to choose between going to Nam or what seemed like a permanent emigration from their country or prison. Who is to blame for giving them these choices?
     
  5. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    12,797
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    See I disagree here. My original post maintains that people like that "THINK" they have no choices, but they actually do. In fact enlisting is taking the EASY way out. That's because you get money right away (signing bonus), the Army takes "care" of you, and you don't have to make another decision of your own for years!

    No more job hunting, no more worrying about the future, no more economic struggle. It's so FUCKING easy, ain't it? Just sign on the dotted line...

    It's easy cause the Army takes care of everything! Signing that contract is like selling your soul! And of course as you state, they are already brainwashed into thinking this is a good decision. And OUR ATTITUDE, or at least the attitude prevailing is that our soldiers are HEROES, so there is nothing MORALLY wrong with choosing that as a job or career.

    Where you are wrong, is thinking that we shouldn't blame these people for signing away their freedom for money. That's BULLSHIT, and that's precisely the attitude that needs changing.

    Why? Cause that's the ONLY way to end the wars. It's not until just BEING a soldier is morally reprehensible, and condemned by most of society that wars end. It wasn't until MOST of America turned against the war AND against the soldiers (at least in terms of respect) that the Vietnam war came to a close.

    Believe me, if most of the people around a potential new recruit told them that they would LOSE respect by becoming a soldier, how many do you think would sign up?

    So those who take the EASY Way out by enlisting don't deserve my respect, nor my sympathy for their situation. They're just too fucking lazy (or dumb) to get a decent job. That's their problem. It's not like the US is suffering a high unemployment rate now.

    And this idea that if they become hired killers, then one day they'll be "help" people is totally ridiculous. In fact, if they had half a brain, they might realize that if they were to "volunteer" with an agency, and were half-way competent they might get offered a "real" job. But that would require that you give of yourself first, without any compensation BEFORE you get your reward. So that "I wanna help people" line is total bullshit.

    Most ppl want to "see the money" first, before they'll get up off their couches and move their ass for anyone.
     
  6. Inquiring-Mind

    Inquiring-Mind Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Should we blame our economic system or individuals for the choices they make?

    Our economic system does force people to make some terrible choices in-order to survive.

    As more American companies and business move aboard for cheaper labour, the army will soon become the only attractive and worthwhile occupation that pays well for many working class people.
     
  7. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    12,797
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    I really doubt that. What you're saying is that Americans now face the same dire economic situation that say Palestinians or Iraqis do. They're forced to become soldiers because there is no other way for them, right?

    Our system is fucked, no doubt. But we haven't got to the point where serving in the military is the ONLY VIABLE option.

    But you are right about one thing. Two wrongs (fucked up economic system & individual hardship) don't make signing up for the military the right thing to do. It's just the EASY thing to do. And LOOK at how many ppl have regretted signing up now!

    All those who just wanted a college education. All those who just wanted to "help people". Now those who are on their 3 rotation are regretting their choices. So why should we encourage more to do the same? It also encourages our gov't to start even more wars.
     
  8. YankNBurn

    YankNBurn Owner

    Messages:
    12,032
    Likes Received:
    10
    So minus the current situations going on you feel there was never and never will be a need for a military in the US?

    You did not seem to isolate your opinion to just current events but rather a broader view that a person who enlists in the military is not needed at all nor did you clarify it to past, present or future.
     
  9. paulfreespirit

    paulfreespirit Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,368
    Likes Received:
    1
  10. palaeopeasant

    palaeopeasant Banned

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    This strongly confirms my original suspicion that you are NOT working class and therefore have never been confronted with this choice. It is so easy for college kids and upper-middle-class suburban wannabe radicals to criticize a poor person for enlisting.

    No more economic struggle...Which in the case of the working class means a possible escape from a lifetime of fastfood jobs. Yet you trivialize that? Are YOU facing a lifetime of fastfood jobs? I seriously doubt it.

    Back to Jessica Lynch. In WV without money you do not go to college. In WV even a "mere" schoolteacher usually comes from one of the wealthier families. Everyone else works in a kwik-mart, drives a truck or mines coal. You risk your life in a mine, and you risk your life in the military.

    And sometimes soldiers do perform proper tasks. Think about the Clinton Administration's use of the Armed Forces. To Haiti to oust a dictator and install the elected President. To the Balkans to halt an ongoing genocide. To East Timor to stop a massive slaughter. Similarly we could credit the French army for inhibiting violence in Chad and neighboring countries. Or the UK for stopping the bloodshed in Sierra Leone (while the USA sat doing nothing about nextdoor Liberia).

    So we should spit on the USA troops who prevented Bosnians from being slaughtered and buried in pits? The problem is not with the troops. If we'd had a real President at the time, you'd have seen the USA military entering New Orleans and quickly alleviating the suffering there. The fact that they did NOT is the fault of the BUSH Administration, not of the troops.

    Every moment you spend attacking troops is time wasted, time you should have spent addressing the evil of those in power who are the cause of this idiotic war as well as a lot of other problems political, socioeconomic, cultural and otherwise.
     
  11. wackyiraqi

    wackyiraqi Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,481
    Likes Received:
    3
    The first post was clearly written by someone who has never been in the military and by someone who definitely does not understand the psychology of terrorism.
     
  12. Inquiring-Mind

    Inquiring-Mind Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly, we cannot patch things forever. Real solutions require attacking the root of of things.
     
  13. verseau_miracle

    verseau_miracle Banned

    Messages:
    7,911
    Likes Received:
    4
    Very good thread skip. Good work
     
  14. crummyrummy

    crummyrummy Brew Your Own Beer Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    33,634
    Likes Received:
    6
    OK, I find I dont often agree with Skip, but....yeah what the hell ammI doing here. I am good at my job. Mad people are dead because of it.I disagree with policy. but if we pulled out now, would it serve a greater good?I men would the less american deaths justify the civil war we leave? I mean I am seriously conflicted. my dad taught me to do my job to the best of my ability

    I have never considered doing it halfway
    even at the thrift store.
    I am a murderer.
    probably.
     
  15. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    Messages:
    10,027
    Likes Received:
    2
    Perhaps you would like to outline exactly who is a terrorist, and explain that psychology to those of us that don't have your enlightened past.
     
  16. Haid

    Haid Member

    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    2
    A terrorist is someone who disagrees with your societies norms and values and then fights against your society. Are they terrorists in their societies, nope. Hey but I don't live there or beleive what they do so yes they are terrorists to me. People have to take pride and respect in where they live and defend and protect its interests. Your premise that the military is just made up of dumb ignorant kids who need money is ridiculous. I am from a middle class family and have served my country. Not only that but I went to college first. Not only me but also three generations before me. I have a brother in Iraq and guess what he had no monetary reason for going. Some of us still believe in keeping this country strong. Someone is always going to be in control. If we are weak then it is not us and I bet the lot of you would bitch a lot more under some true dictatorships. The soldiers of this country are heros to the people of this country just as those who fight against us are heros to there people. IMO, the soldiers who fight for this countries freedom, resources and position in the world are my heros. Why, because I am an American and they fight for my interests. It is a damn shame that people still don't realize what it takes to stay on top and what would happen if we didn't. This country could have taken the world when we were the only one with nukes but we didn't. You know why because we do respect others but be sure that every empire to ever fall was placed back under a new ruler. I like our system thanks, and a big thank you to all those who continue to believe in the greatness we have built. Don't let naysayers tear it down, try to change what you don't like but keep us strong so our country survives the haters.

    Oh and a little quote my dad alway told me:
    "If someones tells you they want to kill you, believe them"
     
  17. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    12,797
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Precisely.

    And I challenge anyone here who supports the military to explain to us exactly how our going into Iraq made the world a better place, and the U.S. safer.

    And don't give us BUSHIT reasons or talking points. Tell us based upon how the situation on the ground is better for people.

    And then tell us how our involvement in Vietnam improved the world situation & made the US safer.

    Then tell us how much the lives of the soldiers who went to Vietnam, who were in the Gulf war and now in Iraq have improved. I want concrete examples too, or stats like unemployment, drug addiction, psychiatric incarcerations etc.

    Do you know why so many people re-enlist after their term is up? Cause they no longer fit in to normal society, can't find jobs, and of course there is the MONEY!

    In case all of you forget,

    THIS IS WAR...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. UrsusKind

    UrsusKind U like Chris Farley?

    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, I don't think most people understand war. You have to pull a Bilbo Baggins and get a far off perspective of it.

    This is my invisible on a mountain view of this one. Poor peoples kids are dieing so rich peoples kids can continue the same profit methods as their parents.

    Small nations of brown people are tired of America meddling in their country's affairs, and building their home governments to suit America's advantage. To curb this America meddles in a small country of brown people in order to shape their government to suit its (America's) advantage.

    Anybody see a cycle but me? or are you busy fucking to keep your virginity?

    I need to get off this planet, I just want to raise my babies to love and respect all while i try to learn the same thing even when people compete with my corest beliefs.
     
  19. UrsusKind

    UrsusKind U like Chris Farley?

    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    0
    oh sorry my point got muddied, I can only support the troops...

    both sides have my full support to go home and try to win this war of ideas the only true way you can sex. Go home have tons of kids the idiology with the largest population usually wins.
     
  20. Haid

    Haid Member

    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well it actually has to do more with perception. See the Muslims want to believe they are tuff and can kick our ass. After the Persian gulf war, Iraq lead a big publicity campain in the Muslim world telling of how he pushed back the US. He was trying to position himself better amoung Muslims with which he was not that popular. He was seen in the Muslim world as a hero for holding on to Iraq against the infidels. He then started suppling weapons and more so money to the palistenians for the same reason. Taking him out had everything to do with letting the Muslims know that can and will take action and that their hero was weak. I really wish they could just come out and say that but people need simple and consise to get behind anything. The war is definately making us safer. All the idiots who want to blow us up are going where? Not here? I find it amazing the the US has held off further attack. In a country this large it is really a miricle.

    It didn't because we pussed out and gave it to the communists. You don't get rewards for losing. The communists got benifit for their involvement however.

    I agree here. We has a people should demand more respect and benefits for our soldiers.

    There are many that enjoy this type of work. We are all different. Some for the money sure but there are a lot of other reasons as well. It is hard to get down to an individual level for this.

    Yes it is, it has always been there and it will always be there. If we drop out we lose and are replaced. It continues. This is a war and like all wars the spoils go to the winners.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice