Straight Talk on Intelligent Design

The problem with the argument from intelligent design (AID) is not that it can be proven wrong. It can't be. Just like you can't absolutely prove there are not a thousand invisible angels dancing on the head of a pin.

No the problem with AID is not that it can be proven wrong. The problem with AID is it's just like the argument that there are 1000 invisible angels dancing on the head of a pin. It's worthless. It doesn't change anything. It has no practical application.

It's doesn't get us anywhere or mean anything or tell us anything in terms of what we're supposed or need to do. It doesn't mean the Bible is the word of god. It doesn't mean Jesus is the son of god. It doesn't mean god listens to our prayers or loves us. It doesn't tell us where to go to church or even to go to church at all. It doesn't mean the intelligent designer wasn't satan. (There's plenty of evidence by the way that this place is a shithole. In case you didn't notice. Just look at all those homosexuals running around.) It doesn't mean we're going to abandon scientific research or that natural selection does not take place. It just doesn't really change anything. It's just worthless. Not false by virtue of disprovability but false by virtue of worthlessness. Real world material and spiritual worthlessness.

In case you still don't quite get it let me explain by means of comparison. Here's another argument like AID that cannot be disproven. It is absolutely impossible to prove that the universe was not created 4 seconds ago and we with all our memories (yes, of things that never really existed) along with it. Among other things this would mean that Jesus Mohammed Krishna etc never really existed. It is impossible to disprove this just like it is impossible to disprove AID.

Want AID introduced into public education? Fine by me as long as they make it clear that the intelligent designer might either be a god or a devil and that we really don't know if creation took place 4 billion years or 4 thousand years or 4 seconds ago. It might get kids thinking for a change.

And now my Apologetica. For those of you who are spiritual and those of you who want the answers and those of you who long for Paradise I am too and I do too. We are all in the same boat. It's just that arguments and positions and documents that don't cut it aren't good enough. Lots of stuff just doesn't sell.

Now cooloner and fuzzynuts why don't you get to work and do the same thing with free will that I just did to intelligent design. I was dissatisfied with the previous threads that tried to take on that topic. Think about free will a little harder.

 

I'm doing a huge report for my law & society class on the evolution vs ID argument...

as of right now i think that they should teach neither as the truth but both as theories and urge the kids to do out-of-school research on both of them. i've found that evolution has a few holes in it that i just cant seem to get over, and i really dont believe anymore that its right to teach evolution as the "ultimate truth" to impressionable children... not that its right to teach ID as the "ultimate truth" either, but i dont see why you can only have one or the other.

 

Well said man WELL SAID!!

Just because we were created, doesnt mean the Genisis account is the story.

 

The thing is that there is objective evidence supporting evolution, and lots of it. Asking kids to do research out of school is not an education system. The facts point to evolution as being accurate, and if you're scientific enough, most of those holes can be filled.

 

so basically you dont want kids to think for themselves but only "learn" when they are told to? as if the public school systems arent incompetent enough already.

 

The main reason I supporit Intelligent Design is because of the flaws in the big bang theory. or maybe not intelligent design on the ENTIRE universe, maybe the universe has just always been here and its just constantly changing, and the perfect conditions on earth was created by some intelligent being, but that is a paradox as well.

But who knows we could be creating universes left and right everyday and not even know it.

 

who says earth is perfect? it is "perfect" (in the sense that we, as life, are here) for us, yes, but maybe somewhere else had a different sort of "phospholipid bi-layer" deal that didnt need water, but another substance?

 

Whoa, hey. That's not thinking for yourself, that's learning for yourself. Excluding the science that illustrates how the world in its present state came to be and telling them to figure it out themselves is just dumb. I'm not saying only learn in school. I'm saying that if it isn't taught in school, 7/8 of the kids aren't going to learn anything about it, and half of those that do are going to learn something wrong that was presented on someone's personal website without science, but still labeled as a theory.

ID, just as SDS said, is not science. If follows no scientific order, and is not testable, confirmable, or falsifyable. To give it the same amount of attention as evolution in a system put in place to teach facts and processes is just irresponsible, regardless of your religious beliefs.

 

ID is stupid because basically people that support it say "x is too complicated to be the product of evolution, god must have created it". This in turn implies that god must be even more complicated, but we are all fine with just accepting he always existed.

I don't know how they would teach ID in schools?

"Ok kids this is the eye, god made it"

"Ok kids, this is the heart, god made it"

Rinse and repeat. What are they actually learning ?
Or do they talk about the structure and function, and then conclude god made it?

This really needs to be a humanity subject rather than a science.

 

That's not what he said, don't put words in his mouth (or keyboard, as it were ).

The educational system is there to teach kids in school. What would the point of it be if they just told you want to look at in their out-of-class time? They could do that anyways. It's not that teachers should not encourage extracurricular reading/learning, but they do need to do their job IN the class, first and foremost.

As it's been said, evolution is the leading theory on this matter. It has tons of evidence and is the most logical conclusion. It's also very much supported by nearly all scientists. Of course there is debate over the exact workings of it (natural selection, gradualism, punctuated equilibrium, etc). But the idea of life evolving is pretty much accepted as fact.

AID is not supported, is not provable of falsifiable, and as SDS said in his beautiful post, it's worthless. It gives us no useful or relevant information and would be a waste of time to teach.

 

We don't teach children about sex when they are in grade school, is it appropriate to talk about God in high school?

 

Because of my job I only have time on weekends so I was not able to participate in this discussion after I posted the thread. I was eager to return today to see what had been said. I was expecting more arguments from those supporting intelligent design but there's not much. On the other hand I shouldn't be surprised because there's really not much that can be said to support it.

soulrebel 51 you mentioned using intelligent design to fill in holes in evolution and naturefreak 412 you said the same thing with respect to the big bang. The problem with this as Cerberus points out and as I also basically address in the original post is that it just doesn't get you anywhere. To postulate as the explanation of something unexplained an entity that is itself unexplained gets you nowhere. You're right back where you started. You think you're filling in holes but you're not. You have no more materially useful knowedge than you had before. You've not achieved anything that you can put to use or apply. It's just worthless. You might as well say the kitchen sink created the Universe. To the question "What is the explanation?" all you've said when you invoke intelligent design is "There's an explanation." That gets you nowhere. It's like if you were driving to Los Angeles and you saw me along the road and stopped to ask me directions and I told you "There is a way to get to LosAngeles." It's just no help at all. That's not giving you directions it's just crap. Thanks Cerberus.

You're right NatureFreak 412 there could be all kinds of Universes out there. In fact I think quantum mechanics says there are. The problem is that if we don't experience them they are indistinguishable from nonexistent Universes.

Yes Karakov we should talk about god in high school. The nation and much of the world is saturated with fundamentalist drivel on every streetcorner and all over the airwaves and we need beacons of the truth demonstrating the incapacity of traditional religious explanations to measure up. One such source should be schools. If we don't think about these things we'll never come up with better answers than the crap that's floating around right now. Philosophy courses should be mandatory.

Personally I want to go around on college campuses and be on the airwaves and you name it taking on the people who are lost and believe things that don't make any sense that they can't defend and that can't be defended. Call me a megalomaniac. And hey I need people who want to organize to this end.

I'm not against the supernatural or spirituality as I said before my soul has real needs and I yearn for it. But crap just won't cut it.

A bit later on we really need to take on free will. You can all think about it in advance.

(I had a guy this past week tell me the Bible was the impeccable word of god because it was divinely inspired. Doesn't make much sense does it, as if one were supposed to take at face value every source that claims it's divinely inspired. One can practically take such assertions as red flags that the origin is anything but divine.)

 

Oh yes, the evidence for evolution is so objective, it's so objective that some teachers have already lost their jobs for considering ID. The FACTS point to EVOLUTION? Sure they do, as long as all other evidence is barred from the classroom, as long as they can keep ID pinned down in the courts, as long as censorship is enforced. As long as they can intimidate other scientists with loss of grant money for speaking out. Yes, supporters of evolution are so objective.

 

He said philosophy should be a required course. I'd add to that a "world religions" class, so you can get a background understanding of all the big faiths out there (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc). I took one in college and it helped me immensely, it should be required in high school.

 

What is intelligence, anyway? Are we intelligent? If we are, the universe definitely suffers from Intelligent Design. If we aren't, then it still probably does.

 

Church doesn't teach shit about other religions except mis- or dis-information. And most of what they teach about themselves is HEAVILY biased. I'm talking about well rounded understanding.

And, they'll never teach debt management in school, because it's a government institution, and the government and the businesses that run it profits off having us all in debt. Bastards. But that's a different thread, in a different forum...

 

all i can do is this , at lest i know i excest, i think i see you point easly stated as dont ask what but insted as why

 

Then again you don't have pagans/wiccans/taoists/buddhists/atheists coming to church like you do at a school where it is mandatory.

 

There is as mush evidence to support ID as there is evolution, but scientists won't let a biology cornerstone loose without a legal battle. Unfortunatly, evolution is the only theory taught in HS. The debates surrounding evolution are forbidden in science classrooms. I feel evolution does not teach critical thinking. Sometimes, however, evolution is taught along with Athiesm, and evolution should be taught only as one theroy, a prediction of our beginnings. Likewise, creationism isn't intelligent design. Intelligent Design is a theroy stating: life is so complex, only an intelligent designer could have created the universe. However, I believe, God doesn't make anything abnormal or weird, so what's all the fuss over? Teach students to critically think, let students learn the scientific process. This is why we teach evolution in the first place. A scientific theroy begins with a testable hypothesis, and as science stands currently there is no link (if I may) to prove either ID or evoultion.

 

True, but that still doesn't mean that the church is teaching its christian flock accurate and unbiased information.

And I'm not talking about preaching religions at school. I just mean kids should have an understanding of the various major religions out there in the world, as they DO shape world events. Islam should be understood and not simply demonized, because demonizing it is unproductive and leads to more problems.