Straight from the Torah....

Who does this describe?

Gen. 3:15.....Seed of a woman
Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head
Gen. 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated
Gen. 9:26,27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem
Gen. 12:3...As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations
Gen. 12:7...The Promise made to Abraham's Seed
Gen. 14:18...A priest after Melchizedek
Gen. 14:18........A King also
Gen. 14:18...The Last Supper foreshadowed
Gen. 17:19.......The Seed of Isaac
Gen. 22:8...The Lamb of God promised
Gen. 22:18...As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations
Gen.26:2-5..The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer
Gen. 49:10...The time of His coming
Gen. 49:10.......The Seed of Judah
Gen. 49:10......Called Shiloh or One Sent
Gen. 49:10...To come before Judah lost identity
Gen. 49:10...To Him shall the obedience of the people be
Ex. 3:13,14........The Great "I Am"
Ex. 12:5...A Lamb without blemish
Ex. 12:13...The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath
Ex. 12:21-27...Christ is our Passover
Ex. 12:46...Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken
Ex. 15:2...His exaltation predicted as Yeshua
Ex. 15:11...His Character-Holiness
Ex. 17:6...The Spiritual Rock of Israel
Ex. 33:19...His Character-Merciful
Lev.14:11..The leper cleansed-Sign to priesthood
Lev.16:15-17...Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death
Lev.16:27...Suffering outside the Camp
Lev.17:11...The Blood-the life of the flesh
Lev.17:11...It is the blood that makes atonement
Lev.23:36-37...The Drink-offering: "If any man thirst."
Num. 9:12...Not a bone of Him broken
Num. 21:9...The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up
Num. 24:17...Time: "I shall see him, but not now."
Deut. 18:15..."This is of a truth that prophet."
Deut. 18:15-16..."Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe me."
Deut. 18:18...Sent by the Father to speak His word
Deut. 18:19...Whoever will not hear must bear his sin
Deut. 21:23...Cursed is he that hangs on a tree

 

How about some context, instead of tiny pieces of text? I looked up just one of these and saw nothing even vaguely related to the topic you are implying.

 

Well pick one and we'll examine it: )

 

With all due respect - disclaimer: I am neither Jewish nor Christian.

I've read the following counterargument AGAINST Christianity.

1) If as Christianity asserts, the crucifixion is the most important event in human history, and the Bible was written by God, why are there two differing stories about what happened? Did he die in the sixth or ninth hour? Were his last words "It is finished" or that "eli, eli baba yaga" thing "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"? Was he tried at the Sanhedrin or by Pilate? I mean, if God really wanted us to get the full story of the most important event in history, you'd think there'd be a cogent and thorough discussion of the matter without contradiction and error.

And it was "cursed is he who hangs on a tree" - not the best way to look at this, huh?

I'll also quote outreachjudaism -

What does scripture say about the messiah and the age he will bring to the world? I would encourage you to read Ezekiel 37. In this well known chapter, the prophet clearly teaches that we can recognize the coming of the messiah when: the resurrection of the dead, the building of the final Temple that will stand forever in Jerusalem, the universal knowledge of God and obedience to His Torah, the restoration of the lost tribes (Ephraim or the Kingdom of Israel whom Assyria carried off), and the complete restoration of the Jewish people to their land all take place.

When we carefully consider that none of this has occurred, we can be assured that although many thousands of individuals have claimed to be the messiah throughout the centuries, Jesus included, none of them is. Moreover, when we ponder whether Jesus is the messiah, it is obvious that the very opposite occurred immediately after the Christian movement began; that is: During the first century the Romans slaughtered many thousands of Jews, the Jewish people were exiled from their land, the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, the knowledge of Torah and its observance decreased, and the nation of Israel was dispersed throughout the Roman Empire. Clearly, there is no relationship between what the Bible says about the messiah and what the Messianic movement teaches about Jesus."

Now, I say this without meaning to offend you or slag your religion, but you must understand that there is quite easy refutation under Judaism for why Jews shouldn't accept Jesus as Messiah.

Religion boils down to what one believes.

Believe what you will and if Jesus fills you with peace and joy then by all means worship Him.

Shalom.

*bows out*

 

dm: er, was that directed to me?

 

1) I didn't even mention Jesus.
2) All the verses I gave came from the Torah.
3) Non-Chrstians come into the Christian forum and say everything bad or negative against what Christians believe yet you will never see them banned. All I want is to have a friendly conversation in the Jewish forum. I don't plan to make fun of the the Jewish religion as others do in the Christians forum. A person's worldview can expand by talking to other religions. So please do not descriminate me because I am a Christian.

 

666 has no relevance in here, it is found in the New Testament.

 

Dude, Jews don't and never will believe in Jesus.

They have the right to say sod off.

Unlike Christians, they don't believe persecution means they're on the right track and/or holy. They just think it's annoying.

 

RE: 1) I didn't even mention Jesus.

Liar.

Ex. 12:21-27...Christ is our Passover
Lev.16:15-17...Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death

So, were you talking about Tom Christ? Roger Christ?

RE: Ex. 15:2...His exaltation predicted as Yeshua

So, saying it in a different language makes it OK?

 

Drumminmama, a bit off topic... but did you ever notice your userid # here in hipforums is 666? (check out link in your user profile)

Couldn't resist the opportunity to bring that up.

 

The link in the browser window I meant.

 

Sorry that was copied and pasted...

 

RE: Sorry that was copied and pasted...

Apology accepted.

Listen, your own Bible says that there will be seeds cast amongst stones. Consider this an example of same and pop back over to Xtianity, k?

Thanks.

 

First off there are plenty of Jews that have become followers of Jesus. However, I still stick by my number 2: A person's worldview can expand by talking to other religions(this goes both ways).

Shaitan, I still am eager to reply to your first response. Those are quality questions that should be answered. As soon as I do a little research and certain that the post will stay on I will reply. Turns out Ezekiel 37 is one of my favorite passages in the Bible : )

 

RE: First off there are plenty of Jews that have become followers of Jesus. However, I still stick by my number 2: A person's worldview can expand by talking to other religions(this goes both ways).

If they become Christians, they aren't Jews. Jews don't accept that the messiah has yet arrived and they have many reasons and Scriptural ones at that to believe so.

RE: Shaitan, I still am eager to reply to your first response. Those are quality questions that should be answered. As soon as I do a little research and certain that the post will stay on I will reply. Turns out Ezekiel 37 is one of my favorite passages in the Bible : )

Chew on this then. And it isn't offered in an attempt to slag you or your beliefs. However, here's a Torah-nic (sp?) worldview on the Messiah:

"Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)askyourself...

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?



He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition."

So, I mean, you can argue all you like, but if you're Jewish, this is your belief...

 

Can you please provide complete quotes for these and not just the location in the bible? So far, I am yet to find one reference to Christ in those places, but maybe it will be easier to discuss if you posted the complete line, and a few before and after.

For example, your Ex. 15:2 argument:

The LORD [is] my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he [is] my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

 

You won't find the specific name of Jesus in the OT

 

And therefore your quotes have absolutly no meaning. You can take just about any quote from the bible, replace the word G-d with Jesus and "prove" whatever it is you want to prove. How about you replace it with "Syntax" and then I can be the saviour too.