"Sissyphobia":

Found this while looking up... I forget what:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissyphobia:_Gay_Men_and_Effeminate_Behavior

I don't entirely agree with a lot of this (specifically about it being analogous to homophobia, since I think I don't see "sissiness" as being gay-specific), but wondering what y'all reckon. How anti-effeminate are you?

Sorry, I don't have a quiz to ascertain that.

 

I'm a little against sissyphobia simply because a lot of retards associate homosexuality with feminism

 

what it says is true there are a lot of places in America were if your a sissy your called gay


most of these places being were they still have gay bashings on a regular basis

at lest that's how it is a lot round here

 

Makes me want to hit that guy with my purse -.-
Well around here in Canada, where I am anyway, I've never seen gay bashing, but if you're effeminate you're usually considered gay, or crazy.

And yeah I'm against effeminate gays, cause the ones around here are just the most shallow, arrogant pricks I've ever seen.

Although, masculine gays are usually just jerks anyway...oh well welcome to highschool.

 

The word 'analogous' means "Having analogy; corresponding to something else; bearing some resemblance or proportion;—often followed by to." - the article is not saying that 'sissyphobia' is the same as homophobia, only that it has some similarity, namely that it's a 'phobia' against a certain type of behaviour.

You're right that 'sissyness' is not exclusive to gays, but the book the article is about seems to refer specifically to gay attitudes towards effeminate behaviour - which IMO is different to sissyness - so the term is kind of misleading.

It does seem to me from experience that there is such a phenomenon, but it's hard to say to what extent exactly. For example, online dating sites etc. seem to have a lot of people self-describing as 'straight-acting' and listing 'straight-acting' as one of their criteria in a partner. However I have heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that these 'straight-acting' men are often paradoxically the most effeminate! Besides, just how 'straight-acting' is it possible to be when you're having sex with other men!?

Personally, I don't really care whether someone is masculine/effeminate/androgynous/whatever if that's just a natural part of their personality, and if they're a good person. If someone was naturally masculine but inauthentically behaved in an effeminate way, or vice versa, I might have a problem, just as I'd have a problem if someone was 'fake' in some other way...

I think the problem is that people (and society) tend not to differentiate between sexual identity and gender identity - they are two different and independant spectra, hence the existence of straight effeminate men, gay masculine men, transgender people of all biological sexes and sexual orientations, etc.

Just because some effeminate gays you know are arrogant pricks, doesn't mean they all are... What you should be against is shallow, arrogant pricks, regardless of gender or sexuality.

 

^ Very good post. I agree 100%.
The book sounds interesting, I'd read it if I wasn't so lazy.

 

I think what bothers a lot of us - what bothers me, anyway - is that very often effeminacy is an affectation, a demand characteristic acquired the second one comes out of the closet, rather than a personality trait we grow up with (that said, I just started reading up on Foucault, and there's possibly no difference, which hurts my brains). Adopting the culture's veneer of what homosexuality is meant to look like is natural enough when we're seeking acceptance from a new group of people, but it can also make us look disingenuous and shallow.

My point was more that you can be anti-"sissy" without being anti-gay. In my case, I have no problem with anyone being gay, but I do have a problem with, for example, gay guys who seek to take up the housewife role (without the kids, obviously) or quit their jobs as soon as they have a boyfriend to earn for them. It's not as uncommon as it should be, and having met someone with that attitude recently, it made me feel quite sad.

While I get that gender (masculine/feminine), sexuality (straight, gay etc.) and sex (dick or vadge) aren't inherently linked, I think it's a mistake to believe the flipside of this - that these things are completely fluid and equal. Masculinity may not be exclusive to men, nor an integral part of maleness, but we still expect it of men - it is more notable to us if a man is not masculine than if he is. OK, so we don't choose our identity exactly, but we do have a degree of control over who we are, who we want to be, and certainly who we try to be and what we do to achieve that. I guess you could argue that "sissiness" is just as valid a "choice" as any other. I don't buy that. I think if someone uses femininity as an excuse to act like a **** or a layabout, that's more than just an alternative lifestyle. (I'd say that I don't care whether people agree, but I do care: I really think people should agree, even if it probably isn't going to happen.)

So yeah, basically I'd argue that sissiphobia isn't analogous to homophobia simply because, as you say, sissiness and homosexuality are pretty separable, and because I don't think you have to be homophobic to consider sissiness an undesirable characteristic given what it tends to involve.

This does kinda ignore the more obvious angle that... well, why would someone who describes himself as attracted to men be expected to be attracted to men who display traditionally female characteristics? Maybe I don't get the argument, but it seems like they're asking people to be attracted to others in an egalitarian, "fair" way that doesn't privilege (in this example) masculinity over femininity. Attraction doesn't work like this. It's instinctive and subjective and, quite frankly, downright unfair. Maybe I do owe fat guys a few handjobs for all those slim guys I've been with, to redress the balance and to prove I'm not shallow. If I do, it's not a debt I intend to honour, for the same reason I don't feel like I'm being sexist by not sleeping with women (which seems to be the logical extension of this).

I think "straight-acting" is kind of a misnomer in a lot of cases. Some people, I'm sure, do have almost a fetish for men who do not come across as gay - possibly they like to pretend that they're "converted" them for the duration of whatever they get up to - but I'd say for the most part it is far more innocuous than that. It usually doesn't mean straight-acting so much as normal-acting (I get that that's potentially an iffy statement, but I still think it's what people are thinking). Personally, in terms of identity, I feel I identify more with maleness than with gayness, that being male has a larger impact on my personality and my lifestyle than being gay. I believe that, with "queens", the opposite is true, and I believe that this is what people find unattractive. Whether you're gay or straight, male or female, a person whose personality seems to revolve primarily around sex is never going to be that appealing, since it makes overt motives and drives which we normally prefer to keep covert (in order to "show willing" to society/individuals; this is complicated and I'll only go into it if it needs explaining).

I realise at this point that I might be talking in circles, so to summarise:

I believe that the term "straight-acting" is being misread to indicate that people have a phobia of "gay-acting" men purely because they don't find them attractive. I do not believe that desire is entirely culturally constructed, and that there are certain traits common to "sissiness" which are always going to be undesirable no matter who you are. Far as I can see, the demographic that most goes for "girly" people is straight men, and they complain a hell of a lot about it.

 

Effeminate guys turn me on and they love me. Our chemistry is explosive.

 

I, personally, am more attracted to straight-acting or just straight guys. When I think about being with someone, its not a limp hand walk like a chick person, it's a person in decent, normal male clothes walking like a normal male. I have been accused of being effeminate before, but I never knew why. Then in a home video I realised why, when I'm waiting to grab something from someone, my hand usually limps instead of waiting perfectly at my side. This bothers me a lot.

Oops, turned into discussing my own problems hehe.

At the same time, I think what matters a little more is how they treat me and how much we like eachother, if their partly effeminate I wouldn't care so much. It's when they over-act gay/femmy.

 

Hard to resist the little effeminate cuties when their prime target is a big straightacting guy like myself.

But have to admit, in terms of boyfriend material, if they are of small stature and effeminate, then its too close to the girls, and cant take them seriously, especially if they have little hands and arms

 

Instant boner here, go infront of the line........ Little hands, small stature, great tanline...... I'm hooked.

 

I kinda have the same problem. For pure novelty value, I could probably stick it in some tiny little twinky feller, but for any kind of repeat business, I need something that could at least pretend to be able to beat me up. As someone who is apparently comparatively manly, this is kind of a problem.

 

Let me start off by saying I hate the term "straight acting". Obviously as mentioned above it is so commonly used by gay men all over. I myself once used it as an adjective. How does one act straight? Is it an interest in cars, beer, and sports? Because while those who are interested in those activities are typically considered more masculine it (obviously) has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. It seems by calling ourselves "straight acting" we're reverting back to what society considers normal. I act like myself; I don't act straight, I don't act gay.

The masculinity and femininity issue is very interesting. Everyone's opinion of what masculinity and femininity means to them will probably be fairly different. In general I think it's important and healthy to share both traits. I believe that I am masculine and feminine and I prefer dating and hooking up with men who identify that same way as well. I have no interest in ever ending up with anyone who is into gender roles whether they associate themselves as being "the man" or "the woman"; gender is fluid.

With all of that said, I have hooked up with what men who many would call feminine and i've hooked up with men who would be what society says as masculine. There is no difference. I'm attracted to personalities rather than what gender traits one possesses.

I think those who look down upon flamboyant or "feminine" guys are just as bad as those who claim homosexuality is wrong. It is their personality, their choice, and their life. We're all in this together.

 

Great post. I didn't even read the rest of the thread, but you said this soooo well.

 

that completely changed my mind on gendor roles.

well, not completely, but it's certainly makes me think about it more. I suppose that as long as they love me, and they're a good person, it doesn't matter what "gendor role" they are in. Thanks for that post, it could very well make me a better person.

 

I agreed with the rest of your post, but this... I don't agree. Not because I think femininity in men is evil, but because I think, if you can't dislike someone based on their personality, what can you dislike them for? I don't mean that we're all entitled to hate someone, but I don't think personality clashes fall under the same banner of tolerance.

 

Very good point.

Personally, I equate it with a type of discrimination. However, I do completely understand what you're saying.

Out of curiosity- Does the annoyance of feminine men only resonate when searching for a partner? Or do you try to not associate with any flamboyant men, period?

 

Pretty much the second one, which is why I don't feel particularly bad about it. I mean, I wouldn't feel bad about choosing a partner based on different drives than I chose my friends, but no, I'm very aware that campness in general is a turn-off. I can deal with "girly" guys up to a point (usually the point where they get loud and/or catty), but I'd always prefer to hang out with more masculine men (and women), even if sex isn't on the agenda. It's not a major problem though; most "girly" guys don't like me much either!

I'd agree that it is "a type of discrimination", but then, pretty much everything we do is based on discrimination of some kind. When we "choose" our friends, we don't rationally decide who is the most appropriate; if someone just irritates us on some level, we're not obligated to ignore it. Certainly when we "choose" a partner, we're often basing it on relatively superficial factors. Is that bad? Maybe, but it's not something we can do anything about.

 

Agreed. Obviously, as you stated, everyone does have their own preferences when choosing friends and that's their right. I agree with everything you said.

I'm glad you're posting again.

 

We're almost completely the opposite on this. Flamboyant gyrlie guys are crazy about me. I know how to manhandle them. I find that a gyrlie guy is the extreme version of a girl, like Joan Crawford on speed. It amuses me for awhile because I also like the Bette type and the Lana Turner divas. I have to have them all. The ones that don't like me are usually my Xs, but they don't count. I like hanging around with my fem babes because they get me extra horny. They know what to say to trigger that right spot. They don't even have to do anything because fem guys give off that certain vibe that attracts me like honey to a bee. The ones I know are extremely smart and witty because you have to be to survive in this world. Catty gyrls don't phase me because they just want attention. If I give 'em my killer smile, they'd drool all over me. Butch, blue collar drag. Not usually my type and I usually avoid guys who try so hard to butch it up with cigars and all, but deep down they're worst than a bitchy queen. Boy, how they teeter in their pumps, oops I mean to say work boots. You see 'em in bear and leather bars. They're more vain than the next door lady, you know the type. At least my fem friends don't have to wear any drag clothes.