Should Guns be Banned in the US?

Ranger

But as I’ve pointed out greed is universal to one degree or another but why is it that American greed is so much more intense in the US that it leads (according to many pro-gunners) to murders rapes and house invasions so lovingly recounted by so many pro-gunners to push the idea of having a gun?

What is so wrong with US society compared to others?

And this is an example of what exactly?

And anyway – “Forbes pegs the world's best-known reigning monarch at a relative pauper's sum of $420 million”.(Forbes).

She doesn’t even get on the billionaire list, and there is 1140 of them.

Maybe if you were better informed you could come up with better arguments?

Also is there a hint of conspiracy theory your not one of those nutters that think the British royal family secretly rule the world, are you? What next that they’re actually seven foot lizard people?

LOL so are you trying to claim that these rich 5% are the ones carrying out all those house invasions, rapes and murders so lovingly recounted by so many pro-gunners to push the idea of having a gun?

I mean what is your point exactly?

Wow and some people think my ideas are crazy.

So in what way would that help you society exactly?

What instance?

Please read - Can guns save you from suppression?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...&postcount=217

“Many pro-gunners seem to feel they are the final arbiters, the ones that would defend American liberty, uphold the US constitution. So what were they doing when their fellow citizens rights were been curtailed in such open fashion and the Constitution trashed?”

Thing is that all dissent begins as minorities and unbalanced governments are and have been adept at marginalising such dissent, as they did with those who had left wing views.

Post 335 of this Thread

The Swiss have still got a citizen army and many there seem to see being able to use a gun as part of their civic duty. They also have a rich society with a lot less of the socio-economic problems prevalent to some parts of the US. It also has a well developed social welfare system and their mentality towards prison rehabilitation and drugs is very different from the US as reflected in their prison populations Switzerland 69 per 100,000, US a massive 686 per 100,000.

I’ve been to Switzerland many times and meet a lot of Swiss people and there doesn’t seem to be the mentality and attitudes that seem to be exhibited by so many American pro-gunners.

So the comparison between Americans and the Swiss actually seem to back up my theory.

 

Scatcho

Have I got it wrong? I mean over and over you have bewailed that you know what is wrong but it is next to impossible to change things – if that’s not stewing in misery I don’t know what is I mean its not exactly a jolly optimistic viewpoint now is it?

But there cannot be land for all, the population of the US is some 80% urban, there would not be enough good land available even if everyone had the knowledge or inclination to be a subsistence farmer. I certainly wouldn’t want to be, anyone that hasn’t just ‘played’ at agriculture knows how hard it can be. I think you need to research more about what life is really like in subsistence agriculture and be taken in my the myth of the frontier homesteader.

Anyway as I’ve pointed out the mentality and attitude of threat and fear seem to be what is getting in the way of social change.

I’m not here to win, I’m here trying to understand, if you leave I feel like I’ve lost, because I still don’t understand your stance and why you seem unable to defend it from criticism?

Why would I separate them?

Your viewpoint of the world – that it is full of hate, violence, murder, rape and misery fits in well with my general theory – that many pro-gunners have a world view based on the ideas of threat and fear, which leads them to the belief they need guns as protection.

Proof, if I needed it, that you don’t read my posts otherwise you’d know I have been ‘over there’ and mentioned it several times so far in this very thread. But even so I’m basing my theory on what seems to be the perceived view of the world presented by many pro-gunners.

Yes - but you seem to be going before answering or addressing the points, criticisms or the issues I’ve raised.

Well as I’ve explained archery needs training and practice to be effective, guns can basically be used by anyone with only a modicum of training.

But in a way yes – as I’ve said the problem seems to be the mentality and attitudes that are behind the desire for guns rather than the gun ownership itself.

But my question would be what were the motivation for the US actions?

And was that the work of the armed citizenry or the US’s standing military forces?

 

Again I’m not getting counter arguments to what I’ve said just more of the same stuff that I’ve already countered – I mean for goodness sake I even had the Swiss gambit thrown at me again and I must have used the same counter reply to that one a hundred times or more.

It often seem to me that there really is a pro-gunner handbook, or are there are evening classes or something I don’t know about.

Anyway it seems that in every gun thread the same sorry excuses for arguments are presented.

The other thing that comes across in these discussions is that pro-gunners only seem interested in promoting guns. But they don’t stop to wonder why they seem to feel they need them – OH yes I know about that big bad worldview full of goblins and rapists and really, really bad people – but why don’t they ask themselves why their world seem to be like that?

 

Do you have any theories as to why their world might be like that? You've been interested in finding out these American attitudes for some time, I'm interested to see YOUR view on them. Why is fear and the threat of violence so prevalent, etc?

 

230+ years of trading blood for $

 

I wonder, has anyone concidered that perhaps not everyone in AMERICA is an AMERICAN, there are tons of Illegals here and they do not abide to our laws. Anyone can walk through the 'fence or swim over. I wonder if they left their guns at home.

If you knew everything, then you would know everything but you ppl from other countries just Think you know what is going on in the U S of A. You sit with sneers on your faces and discuss how disgusting we are. If it werent for Amercia, Canadians would be speaking mexican or russian.

We Americans have been protecting your collossal ass for quiet some time now with our nasty un-nessessary Guns and all you can do is find fault in us. Well, fight your own battles with you tongue and when it is ripped from your mouth and roasted over an open fire and injested. Think... if you just had a gun this would not be happening to you. You could have defended yourself.

Have you ever concidered that ppl still HUNT for food. Shall we go hungry bc You do not think we should have a gun. Should we let the pill bellies your ppl have invented for us with your ' PharmaCos' to take over our society that we have built with our blood sweat and tears.

You who post here about NO GUNS. I wonder where you would want to be standing when the shit comes down on top of your country. I Bet everything I have that you ppl would be hiding behind an Amercian with a GUN.

I also bet that if you were confronted with a robber in your home where your children were sleeping that you would Wish you had a gun to defend your home and family with.

I see you as liers and cowards. You know America has got your back and so far you have been safe. Your Welcome. But here you are wanting to remover your safty net and ours too. Ok say we lay down our arms.. Now your speaking mexican and russian.

All of you mofos are Jelouse of us, you cant stand it bc we have our rights and we stick by them. We are a strong ppl and we will not bend to government rule. It was The Citizens that built this country with our bare hands against all adversity and we became the greatest nation in the world. And all other countries hate us bc we did it on our own, with our guns.

So, you ppl can hate all you want. It dont change a thing. We will continue to tote our pistols and rifels if we so choose and we will not give two damns if you like it or not. It's not your biz'.

So, you ppl just sit there on your sactamonious ass's and judge what you know NOTHING about bc you have no guts of your own. COWARDS!! We could come up there right now and kick everyone of your pansy ass's. I could do it myself without a gun. That is how weak your country is. You DEPEND on Americans to save your fat frozen ass and hate us for it bc you know your weak.

Lets deal with the right fukin now and forget the past as it is over and done with. Take a look around you and wake the fuck up. Your aboot to be envaded by Russia. Who's gonna save your ass. America has no guns...oppps.. YOUR BAD.

sh

 

as dean martin used to sing, everybody gets invaded by somebody, sometime

do you think that this pimple known as the united states of america is gonna last forever?

the reason i italicized "of" is that most "americans" like to forget that "america" refers to the entire new world, from tierra del fuego on up

thus, technically speaking, mexicans are americans

 

Ohh give me a break wica.. a name you have only in word and not in deed Wiccans do not involve themselves in such matters. How stupid do you sound.. It took the whole damn mexican army to whip a few Amercians and we overcame it and whipped your asses and took and made prosperous what you wasted.. bite me Wa cuz you dont have a chance in two hells of EVER taking Texas. I doubt if you will try bc we are ARMED, Locked and Loaded and EDUCATED. We The People will not stand by and let it happen. We The People will fight and win. Ohh yea and You Illegals will NEVER have the Right to Vote in our elections. What country in the world would do that, let non citizens vote in their elections. How does that even sound right. It aint nevah gonna happen.. ever.

You always pop up when someone mentions Mexcio.. why dont you move back there instead of taking advantage of our hospitality. Go back to mexcio and fix your own fucked up thieving government and get out of our country. We dont want your garbage piled up on our well maintained streets, we do not want your feces flowing down our roads, we do not want your drug wars. Have you even been to mexico wa.. I doubt it or you would keep your mouth closed. Mexico is a crumbling trash bin.

Take a ride out there and look around.. ohh you cant look around bc there is garbage piled up for miles and that is all you can see except for the shit running in the ditches bc you are too lazy to build proper sewer systems. Your hospitals suck royaly and your female children are impregnated by age 12 and by age 20 they have 7 or 8 kids they cannot feed or school and are without a spouse to support them so they all come running to the USA... Stay home, we dont want you.

 

Sounds like you've got that covered well enough. So you and the British have something in common after all!

 

It has nothing to do with me hating. I am just voicing what others are too polite to say. I stand on TRUTH not political correctness... point out any lie that I have told.

I dont hate mexicans per se' I hate what they are doing to MY country. I hate the rudeness they inflict on us in the stores and the social services we hand them are demanded not excepted humbly. They talk shit about us yet want to be us. Want what we WORKED for and built with our own hands. They want to turn it in to what is now mexico a ruined nation. Not on my watch they wont. I dont care if they were from Mars. We fly the American Flag here not the mexican or any other Alien flag.

 

oh which ones? you should point them out to the police.

well they probably did because its so easy to buy guns in the usa

and if it wasnt for the English you would likely be speaking German or italian

and we have been helping you dig yourself out of the hole you fell into that you dug in vietnam, the middle east, granada, etc etc etc

how utterly stupid its the usa that shits on a country then expects europeans to help them clean the mess up. If it werent for the british you would have had your asses kicked in iraq just like you got slung out of vietnam and pissed on in korea

yeah of course cos everyone hunts their own food in new york and chicago, boston, los angeles etc

thats what we pay the army for and to dig the usa out of the graves it keeps digging for itself

its legal in the uk to use REASONABLE FORCE to eject a robber so if they come at you with a gun you are allowed to shoot them. Also our police have a "shoot to kill" policy. the police in the uk never aim to wound they aim to kill

and next you will be speaking English

biggest pile of horse shit i ever heard, go tell that to george bush who swindled you out of every penny you own and left you with a world debt bigger than you can pay off

well us british will remember that the next time your troops cant handle going into a country on their own and want britain (as usual) to help

OH FUCK I've been TROLLED !
LMFAO you troll

oh so just the ones you can see then

 

stonk,
You are not worth my time. you obviously dont have anything to say that is worth while to listen to.. I would not waste my fingers on your "arguments" bc they are too thin to holdup in the LIGHT.. transparent. I believe it was Amercia who saved your asses from speaking German.. was it not. Hummm.. and you call me a troll.. your very misguided.

 

'Us and them' - the history of mankind summarised in three words.

 

To thoes that do not live in a state that is being over run by Illegal Immigrants. You have no idea what is going on. You have no leg to stand on if you did not experience it.. just like you could never know the experience of dropping LSD unless you have dropped it.. Maybe we need to give a big does to our enemies and maybe they will se the light and know what we go through.

Have your pay cut down bc illegals work for less.. try to manage your bills now that your check is cut in half. Try to get a food stamp bc you can not feed your kids bc your check has been cut in half. Try to get medical help bc your check has been cut in half and cannot afford to pay for insurance. Try to pay your morgage with your check cut in half, try to pay off your car with your check cut in half. gee whiz.. does it suprize anyone why our economy is shot from all the CHARITY we give to ILLEGALS.

If AMERICA falls so do YOU!!! The world would fall right beside us.. you are ignorant and talk nonsence.

 

McFuddy

I think the simple answer would be that I don’t know – that’s why I ask so often.

One of the problems is there seems to be a contradiction between how many pro-gunners perceive themselves or want to perceive themselves and what they actually say in the discussions.

So while they often claim to be unafraid and unthreatened when they go into detail (that they feel that someone at any time might attack them and their loved ones raping and murdering as they go) it is clear they are frightened and do feel threatened.

But why do they feel so afraid and threatened?

It is probably a taught response, cultural conditioning, here are a few musings, just some ideas from the top of my head.

Look at the responses and themes seem to become apparent, riffs in the debate some historical, others narrative, others political.

I’ll select two –

The idea of invasion - of being violated - invasion of the US, of the home, of you loved one being raped.

And then there is the one about the enemy within – the criminals, the government agents, the crazies.

It is the feeling of victimhood of immanent attack from some quarter or other.

And that feeling has been promoted in one sense or another for years. While often the American’s have been the aggressor they have often portrayed themselves as the victim.

The wagon trains of the goodly homesteaders in a circle under attack. Heroic Custer fighting to the last man. The good kindly cowboys against the cowardly Indian savage. The sinking of the USS Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Iraq’s link to 9/11.

(and think of all of the popular entertainment involving the invasion of America, from The Stricken Nation by Hugh Grattan Donnely in 1890 through to Orson Wells War of the world that was taken literally in 1938 up to the Reagan cold war classic Red Dawn and all the way up to the just released Battle: Los Angeles)

Then there is the enemy within, the yellow peril, predatory blacks, papist Irish, Italian mobsters, the communists, the drug lords, the terrorists and of course the vicious and merciless criminals.

All talked up by the media and the politic establishment for their own agendas.

There is an old saying about divide and rule – and another about a good scapegoat being as good, if not better, than an actual solution to a problem, since they cost less.

If you live in a society where history, the media, your entertainment and your politicians are telling you to be afraid and under threat, maybe you end up being scared and feeling threatened?

 

my name is wica, not wicca

i am not a wiccan

the name is based on one of the languages that the only real americans speak, in this case, lakota

keep the mexicans out? let the maya stay, let the yaqui stay, let whoever stay, and kick all the europeans out

including myself [i'd prefer to go back to poland, rather than ireland or italy]

who sounds stupid?

 

ohh.. I see wica.. my mistake.. so you claim to be Native American.. ohh brother.. or are you just using it to make yourself feel important. I doubt if europeans are walking over or swiming over to America illegally. That's a stupid comment.. I am talking about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Not ppl who come here honestly. Get a fucking clue.

 

Shameless

The same old arguments from the pro-gunners handbook, they have all been covered.

Rest of it is the usual useless rant of the ill informed, from someone that seems to have had a drink or two too many.

And once again we get the ‘invasion’ and the ‘enemy within’ theme that I’ve just mentioned above, an alien invasion of Mexicans coming as the enemy to destroy goodly America from within, circle the wagons ….

Thank you heifer for backing me up.

 

I dont think we are Afraid. I think we are prepared for in the event it may happen it is always best to be prepared.

For instance. We my family and I live on a farm and grow our own food. We have a water well for water and hunt and fish for our meat. In case of any event going down weather it be domestic or forgien we will stand our ground and fight for which is ours. If calamity stricks and the ppl go crazy for survival we may have to use force to protect what we have. We are old and will not hold up to hand to hand combat, so, I will be toting a gun for survival. If you come to take what we work our ass's off for you will be met will a 45. in your face. If you come in peace and will carry your load and stand and fight with us your one of us and are welcome. If you come to take by force you will be countered with more force. That's just the way we roll. If you dont like it stay the hell away from us cuz we aint playing games.

 

What if AMERICA stopped sending aid to all you motherfuckers, then you would be talking out of the other sides of your two faced shit and cry bc your own ppl cant support your country. Your all a bunch of parasites living off the back of the American ppl. AND THAT'S THE TRUTH!!