Satan... biblical hero?

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by Lodui, Jan 19, 2005.

  1. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    I'm sure most people who would call themselves satanists are disgruntled teens who are trying some feux rebellion aginst their 'rents who go to church every Sunday.

    But Satan is by far the most interesting character in the bible...

    God is a one dimensional, A father figure who judges his children and spanks them if they do wrong.

    Jesus is very compasionate, but also very naive... eventually getting murdred by the same people who he was trying to redeem. Also a very simple character.

    But the serpet wasn't simple.

    I don't believe in the bible, or god or satan.

    But I have read the Bible... and I think genesis is by far the most interesting part of the whole book...

    God creates adam... a mindless drone... in gods own image.

    Man was supposed to be god's protege...

    Man was supposed to be a naive ruler of Earth... ruling the garden of eden in a formula of god's design...

    A powerful but empty destiny awaited man.

    But along comes the serpet, (satan) and offers mankind a choice to usurp his destiny and taste the fruit of divine knowledge...

    Why would god keep free will away from humanity? Wouldn't god want to spread his knowledge... was he afriad of man's power once he had free will?

    The angel lucifer faced perdition if he gave humanity the chance to redem itself through knowledge...

    But he gave us the oppurtunity anyway... and Adam accepted.

    Satan was willing to accept an eternity in darkness to give humanity a chance for enlightenment.

    I would argue that satan is the hero of the bible.

    And the savior of humanity.

    I don't believe in the bible...

    But if I did... I would be a satanist.
     
  2. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    Gnostic Christians actually believe(d) their was a higher God than Yahweh and that Yahweh was an imperfect, jealous, and perhaps a capricious god.

    They felt that Yahweh had tricked or trapped a divine spark inside all matter and that the purpose of this life was to 1) realize you've been duped; and 2) to learn the path to escape Yahweh and his archons (powers, rulers, minor gods) who controled the gates to the seven heavens. Our true destiny, they claim, lies beyond the heavens (ruled by astrology), beyond Jupiter, into the Pleroma (the fullness).

    They also believe(d) that bi-sexuals are perfect beings, and that the true God was a hermaphrodite.

    Its all interesting stuff, but I feel bad even writing it. I know that it isn't very rational to believe in God, or in a positive outlook on the universe, its purpose and harmony, I just do. There is a wide area for speculation and flexibility within my personal belief system.

    Cheers
     
  3. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    Well, in the garden, the serpent appears to tell Adam and Eve the truth about eating of the tree of knowledge, whereas Yahweh, well lets say was somewhat careless with the truth. They ate and were enlightened, just like the serpent said they would be. At least he was being straight up with them.
     
  4. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    That's really interesting, I had never heard of the sect... I'm going to check that out.


    Thats interesting too...

    A true god would be able to seamlessly change between genders...

    but if there was a god... why would it need reproductive organs anyway?



    ... Yeah, true enough... but I don't think that satan was really a negative charcter in the bible... just really misunderstood.

    Maybe their is no negative or positive... just choices between...

    But thats what it seemes like the biblical satan gave to man.

    I also think evolution is the highest form of divinity... which is another choice the biblical satan gave to man.

    A widespread area of speculation and flexibility is the best way to go anyway...

    Nobody knows anyway... We may have eaten the fruit of knowledge... but we still evolved from apes...

    Sorry if this is incoherent anyway... I've been up all night drinking and its nearly 6 am. [​IMG]



    Same to you... I'd beter get some sleep. [​IMG]
     
  5. I got a real cool story about Adam and Eve and them getting out of Paradise. It's about that God wanted them to leave, he wanted them to evolve. Unfortunately it's in Dutch and I'm in no mood to translate now.
     
  6. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Some gnostic sects believed that the serpent in the garden was Christ. He came to give knowledge to Adam and Eve. This is interesting because in many cultures, Indian, Meso-American for example, the serpent is a symbol of knowledge.
     
  7. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    the fact that God wanted to limit the knowledge of Adam and Eve is scoffed at by almost all Gnostic sects.

    The thing that I appreciate about Gnostic theology, is that they have solved the problem of "failures" in the system (i.e. why would God want all those Tsunami victims to die? because he is either evil or imperfect). What I don't like about their theology is that it is inherently pessimistic. They believe that all matter is evil, including the Earth, the stars, and the cosmos in general. I don't believe that. They believe that all matter is doomed to corruption and decay. I see organisms that breakdown on a singluar level, but evolve on a species level. etc.

    Btw, there are still ancient Gnostic "Christians" (as opposed to the new age sort) that still live in the marsh areas of southern Iraq. They number about 200,000 and are known as "Manicheans". Many have moved out of their traditional marshlands into Baghdad, where they have become extremely rich trading goldwares.
     
  8. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

    a thing about acctual satanism is that it is not worship satan as God...its that God will forgive you, Satan will screw you over...my friend bought the satanic bible..hes not satanic, but he is just that way...
     
  9. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

    Well I don't believe in Satan or god...

    To think theres some kind of halloween monster living under the Earth who'll stick you with a farming tool is borderline retarded.

    I've heard Christians saying in the past that this is what the devil wants... for you not to believe in him, or god...

    But when you think about it... wouldn't that also make lucifer more wise then god?

    WHy would a perfects beings pride be hurt if you didn't believe in him...

    Why would he care?

    Lucifer was beyond the petty idea of being revered by people.

    Score another one for the devil.
     
  10. juggla

    juggla Member

    real satanists dont believe in a actual satan figure, they believe in what he represents such as indulgence instead of temperanc, and their against love for your enemies, and basically most of what the bible says is moral to be bullshit.
     
  11. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl Banned

    Have you actually read the Bible?
    Lets take a look at this:

    Ok, I definately agree with you so far heh

    OK.. lets see why (and here you propose to have read the Bible)

    One Dimensional?
    Right from the 'get go' we learn God transcends anything in the Universe, who creates a Universe, Free Will, A God who can describe himself as 'We' or "I AM'.
    A God who can be everywhere and anywhere at the same time.
    He can appear as a 'Person' but is not 'Spacial' either.

    Yes, God 'sometimes' presents Himself as a 'Father Figure' but that is just one of many 'Figures' He has.

    He can be the 'BIG' God of Laws and He can present Himself as an astonishing complex and mysterious force.

    Your use of the word 'Spanks' was just trivialising a God who takes a personal interest in the disciplines of His Creations.

    Again, It appears as if you have never read the Bible (in this case the NT)?

    Jesus certainly was compassionate (agreed)
    .. and he knew exactly what was going to happen to him.
    He mentions his fate several times.
    He is even aware who will not be redeemed and will choose to have him killed.

    This is definately not a 'simple character' (although you did not seem aware of the many levels Jesus was working on)

    Understood, - we are taking it for 'what is is' for the sake of this convo.
    Agreed we are saying 'IF the text were true'

    You may have 'read' the Bible but you dont seem to have any comprehension or retention of what you read.

    Agreed Genesis is very exciting.

    [To be a 'Geek' about it - The Bible is a compendium of Books, Genesis being One of Sixty Six books.]

    This is the opposite of what Genesis clearly states - Man is created with intelligence and Free Will.
    This bit about Mans Free Will is just about the most established issue in the first few chapters.
    Its like you did not even read the first two chapters?

    There is nothing that even insinuates Man was supposed to be Gods Protege.

    You might be confusing this with the empty promise from another Creation (Satan) in which he tells them they can be 'Like Gods'?

    Once again,, its like you have never read Genesis at all?

    Mankind is given Dominion over all the Earth, including the Sky, Seas and Earth.
    Mankind is given Free Will and Intelligence, ability to move as he pleases.

    Huh?
    I guess we will never know, but it seemed to involve living out their destinies, creating new people and living in harmony with nature.

    Not entirely sure why this is 'empty' but ok.

    Ok.

    I dunno either... since Genesis clearly explains humanity has Free Will, and the very passages you are trying to refer to demonstrate that.. I dont know why you are asking this question.

    They chose to have knowledge of Good and Evil.

    Again, nothing whatsoever gives any reader the impression God is somehow 'afraid' of giving Free Will - SINCE GOD ALREADY GAVE THEM THAT.

    You did not get this from Genesis.
    You are confusing Genesis with some other Books you must have read?

    The Angel Lucifer rebels against Heaven LONG before any Humanity is even created.

    Secondly.. there is no reason to believe Lucifer (now Satan) either gave humanity the choice of 'knowledge of good and evil'
    (They already had that choice before the Serpent shows up)
    OR
    That there is any 'Redemption' through Knowledge of any kind.

    Once again, Satan (The Serpent) does NOT give Adam or Eve the 'Opportunity'.
    This is clear and simple in Genesis.
    Adam and Eve had the opportunity.

    The only thing Satan does is show up to 'tempt' them into making their own Free Will choice.

    Once again.. They already had the choice available to them.

    Once again.. You did not get this idea from Genesis. Satan is condemned to darkness (by his own choice) long before his appearance at the Garden of Eden.

    Are you getting these stories from an online game or some TV show?

    You would also be examined for mental retardation considering that Humanity DID choose knowledge of Good and Evil and consequently fucked themselves up for centuries till now.

    Not that you are basing any of your conclusion on Genesis account.

    Please read the book of Genesis before claiming to have read it.

    Its unhelpful when people pretend to have done things because it slows the constructive discussions to a near halt.
     
  12. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    Quetzalcoatl, I don't think Lodui was being entirely serious or analytical in his statements or critique. Why are you treating this post like his salvation hinges upon your biblical defense? Lighten up homie.
     
  13. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl Banned

    Your right, Lodui was not being serious or even partly serious in his 'critique' since he didnt even bother to critique the actual book in question.

    Im not sure if its my writing style (or lack of) but i didnt mean to appear particularly bothered by it.

    I thought it was more 'ridiculous' that someone would actually try and bluff other members in the Hipforums Religion and Philosophy section??

    I mean.. did he not think that just maybe someone here has read Genesis (or has a copy) and would catch on?
     
  14. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    perhaps it belongs in random thoughts. still, his point is that, for Lodui, as a fictional character, satan has the most interesting role.
     
  15. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl Banned

    Goldmund.. I spotted your little add-on of 'Fictional Character' (try and change the subject?)
    however - in this thread, Lodui asks us to 'take the book of Genesis 'as if' it were true'.
    For the sake of argument we are saying "What if this is the case.."

    Lodui never mentioned he was critiquing a made-up version of the story he also called 'genesis'.
    He pretended to be refering to the well-known book Genesis found in the Bible.

    Not cool
     
  16. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    I'll let Lodui defend what he wants. I don't think he really cares. I was saying that to Lodui, satan is a fictional character.
     
  17. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Two points - is gnostic theology - or are gonstic theologies (as there are many variants) any more anti-world than orthodoxy?
    In the gospels, Christ says the world is evil, its works are evil, only he who hates the world can know Him. (I don 't accept this view).
    Even science says that matter is running down due to the effects of entropy, and that the earth will eventually be burned up by the sun.

    I'm not sure either about the Manichees. So far as I am aware, they are more dualists than christians, and I believe I read that Mani, the founder, was very influenced by Zoroastrianism.
     
  18. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

    "They also believe(d) that bi-sexuals are perfect beings, and that the true God was a hermaphrodite. "

    hey, me too! it makes total sense to me.
     
  19. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    Some gnostic sects believed that the serpent in the garden was Christ. He came to give knowledge to Adam and Eve. This is interesting because in many cultures, Indian, Meso-American for example, the serpent is a symbol of knowledge. BlackBillBlake

    Good point, like Quetzcoatl, the plumed serpent.....
    But some people might not like the proposition that Jesus is the serpent. Of course Jesus did say he is the light of the world, the light and the way, etc.
    And the serpent told the truth in the garden, by saying they would become enlightened. Lucifer means light-bringer, which is eerily similar to how Jesus described himself.
    So, if that is true, then Jesus is the son who rebelled against his father.
    I don't buy it though. If that was true, I would take the side of Jesus and all my friends who didn't make the cut at the pearly gates. I am sure that most of my friends will be downstairs. I will get a huge kick out of it, if jesus n the devil turn out to be one and the same...l0l.
     
  20. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Actually in this version, Jesus wasn't rebelling against the Father. The idea was/is that this universe was not created by God, but by a lesser being known as the Demiurge. Often, this Demiurge is equated with Satan - he is supposed to have fallen from heaven and set this world up as his own kingdom.

    In one version, as satan fell, so his energy crystalized into the visible world.
    He was the one who forbade Adam and Eve to eat the apple - because he wanted to fool them, to keep them ignorant of his duplicity, the fact that he was not God almighty as he was claiming, and above all to keep from them knowledge of the true God.

    As for Jesus and the Devil being the same - ever read 'Damian' by Herman Hesse? He deals with this, and posits a God he calls Abraxas, who is both god and devil combined.

    The problem is neatly circumvented by Hindu philosophy which says that all qualities both good and bad have their origin in one unified Divine Source. The manifest evil here is simply a product of ignorance.

    By the way, I'd better add that I don't necessarily subscribe to these gnostic cosmologies of old. But I do think that the concept of Gnosis is a big part of what is lacking in orthodox Christianity.

    Love & peace.
     

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