Richard III

Discussion in 'History' started by odonII, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. odonII

    odonII O

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    Richard III was King of England for two years, from 1483 until his death in 1485 during the Battle of Bosworth Field. He was the last king of the House of York and the last of the Plantagenet dynasty.


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    A skeleton with a cleaved skull and a curved spine dug up from under a car park is that of Richard III - solving a 500-year-old mystery about the final resting place of the last English king to die in battle.

    Cast by Shakespeare as a deformed tyrant who murdered two princes in the Tower of London, Richard was slain as he fought to keep his crown at the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485, crying out: "A horse! A horse! My kingdom for a horse!"

    Experts from the University of Leicester said DNA from the bones matched that of descendants of the monarch's family.
    In one of the most important announcements in the University’s history, academics have revealed that the Greyfriars skeleton is indeed that of King Richard III.

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    Lynda Pidgeon of the Richard III Society:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-skeleton-last-plantagenet-king-live

    http://www.thisisleicestershire.co....on-Leicester/story-18030925-detail/story.html

    http://www.le.ac.uk/
     
  2. Lurkey

    Lurkey Guest

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    they're so desperate with 'yes it IS him', makes me think 'no its not'

    pretty suss on this one for being a scam.
     
  3. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Another skeleton dug up.
    Another thousand or so people remain hungry.
     
  4. odonII

    odonII O

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  5. odonII

    odonII O

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    Try a billion...
    You can't really blame Richard III for the worlds problems...

    Not interested?...didn't ask you to be.
     
  6. Lurkey

    Lurkey Guest

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    I liked the article, thanks for posting. Don't mean to be mr negative here...

    but (lol)....

    surprising things happen with DNA studies when you go back some. Seem to remember Genghis Khan was one; like ALL mongols are related and a lot of the rest of the world too.

    For sure - we are a very un-diverse species genetically. Less sure about this (Bill Bryson) but I've heard there is more diversity in 1 troop of chimps than the whole human race.

    IMHO DNA testing for an individual is solid, DNA testing for heritage is wobbly as all fuck.

    Just an opinion tho. I'm no expert.
     
  7. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    i was interested in this (currently studying the richard 3rd shakespeare play) because i was under the impression that the whole "twisted spine" thing was largely a result of propaganda (because back then we assumed that physical abnormalities/disabilities were indicative of moral failings) but apparently (i've not seen the doc, but have heard that) the skeleton DOES have a spinal abnormality, which turns a great deal of the critical history of the play on its head.

    i look forward to catching the documentary online or if it is repeated.
     
  8. odonII

    odonII O

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    I think if the Canadians lineage was not already known and they were trying to verify a random person and the king - that would be wobbly. But they new he he was related to the King beforehand. So the results would be a lot more solid. If that makes sense.
     
  9. odonII

    odonII O

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    autophobe2e

    The documentary was very good, imho. The lady from the RichardIII society was a tad too emotional for my liking - but she had devoted a lot of her life to it all...so...
    Apart from that, it was very good.
    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/richard-iii-the-king-in-the-car-park/4od

    With regards to his 'twisted spine' the historical accounts, and Shakespear's spin (or misunderstanding) on his physical being were over-blown.
    More of a deviation of the spine than a hunch-back - that would not have probably been noticeable with his clothes on.
    The issue of his withered arm was called into question, too.
    It did say he had some slightly feminine bones.

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    More recent interpretations have been kinder...

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  10. Koryssa_RUS

    Koryssa_RUS Member

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    Fantastic article, and great discovery for historians! Thank you for sharing.

    It is so strange, how many people stand here and not know what was beneath their feet! It also is exciting to think how much more there is still to find in the world.

    Do you have link to this study? I would be interested to read it.

    I have some of Tatar heritage, and family in Mongolia! :leaving:
     
  11. odonII

    odonII O

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    I've lived in Leicester the vast majority of my life, and have walked past the site perhaps a hundred or so times - and never knew (obviously). I knew the city had links to Richard and there is a vast amount of information available here. But to think he was buried literally a stones throw away from where I live is....I don't know... : / ...nice to know? I dunno. Interesting, perhaps.
     
  12. Karen_J

    Karen_J Visitor

    How the hell did he end up in an unmarked grave? :confused: Whoever buried him had to know who he was.
     
  13. White-Light

    White-Light Member

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    Its a way of insulting him. Bin Laden had an unmarked grave, so there would be no worshippers.
     
  14. odonII

    odonII O

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    [​IMG][​IMG]


    The fate of Richard III’s body

    Richard III’s death and burial

    Richard III was killed at the battle of Bosworth Field on 22 August 1485. After the battle his body, stripped and slung across a horse’s back, was carried back to Leicester, passing over Bow Bridge, across which Richard had ridden as a living man only a day or two before. In Leicester, on Henry VII’s instructions, the body was exposed to the public gaze so that all might know for certain that Richard was dead.


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    Beyond this the new king seems to have made no immediate provision for the disposal of his predecessor’s remains. It was the Franciscan Friars of Leicester who apparently took the initiative of requesting permission to inter Richard’s corpse. Henry VII’s court historian, Polydor Vergil, reports that Richard was ‘buryed two days after [on 25 August?] without any pompe or solemn funerall … in thabbay of monks Franciscanes at Leycester’. This location is confirmed by the contemporary Warwickshire antiquary, John Rous, who adds that, as one would expect for a person of such rank, the burial took place in the choir of the church.

    For the next ten years, Richard III’s burial place remained unmarked. In the summer of 1495, however, King Henry VII took somewhat belated steps to provide a fitting tomb for his late rival. A Nottingham alabasterman, Walter Hylton, was commissioned to erect a monument ‘in the Church of Friers aforeseid’; the budget allowed for this work was £50. No detailed description of the tomb exists, but it was of ‘mingled colour, marble’, with a figure of Richard in alabaster. It bore an inscription recording Henry VII’s generosity in paying for it, and asking for prayers for Richard’s soul, ‘t’atone my crimes, and ease my pains below’. This tomb remained in place in the Greyfriars’ church for the next 43years.


    In the case of Richard III there were no close relatives on hand to rescue his remains when the Leicester Greyfriars were expelled in 1538. The superstructure of his tomb probably stood for a while in the roofless ruin of the choir. It is even possible that it survives to this day having eventually been salvaged and relocated in another church, like the de Vere tombs from Earls Colne.*

    As for his body, there is no reason to doubt that it remained where the friars had buried it in 1485. The evidence, in fact, strongly suggests that this was so. In due course the friary site was acquired by the Herrick family. Robert Herrick, one time mayor of Leicester constructed a house and laid out a garden on the eastern part of the site, where once the choir had stood. Here in 1612 Christopher Wren (future dean of Windsor and father of the architect of St Paul’s Cathedral) who was then tutor to Robert Herrick’s nephew, saw ‘a handsome stone pillar, three foot high’, bearing the inscription ‘Here lies the body of Richard III, some time King of England’. This pillar had been erected by Robert Herrick when he redeveloped the site, in order to mark the location of Richard’s grave.*

    Words: John Ashdown-Hill

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/myths_legends/england/leicester/article_1.shtml
     
  15. leeds85

    leeds85 Member

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    So what you saying? Some peasant given the job to bury him was going to upset the new king and all his supporters by putting a cross/stone saying here lies richard III. He was overthrown because his right to the throne was in question remember.
     
  16. leeds85

    leeds85 Member

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    I find it interesting that he's going to be buried in Leicester catherdral and and put on display in a museum. When does(n't) it become ok to put a skeleton on show?
     
  17. odonII

    odonII O

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    Read above...
     
  18. BeachBall

    BeachBall Nosey old moo

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    You gotta be cautious, in general, about the DNA thing.

    They have a living descendant of the King's sister, and there is a DNA match to a body which appears to hae been slain in the same battle as Richard III.

    Now, LOTS of the court nobles would have had fairly close family ties ... and a descendent of the king's sister is likely also to be a descendent of quite a few of the court nobles, a fair few of whom will also have died at Bosworth ... so MANY of the men who dies at Bosworth, if you tested their skeletons today, might well show a DNA match to this living descendant of Richard III's sister.

    The key point, however, is that there is only ONE person who, according to history, died at Bosworth and was buried in this location. So having found a skeleton there ... and having made the DNA match ... AND the skeleton showing clear signs of having been slain in battle ... well, it pretty clearly IS him.

    So it's human remains, of a King of England, France and Ireland, which have been respectfully interred ... and if we're gonna disturb them then we should reinter them somewhere suitable.
     
  19. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    I'm not blaming him at all.
    In my personal opinion, I think it's disgraceful how much money is put into this, this skeleton.. which is really not all that important at all.
     
  20. odonII

    odonII O

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    It might not be important to you or even 6.8 billion people - but it is to the rest.
    To be fair, I'm not sure if public or private money has been used to fund this - I'll have to find out.
    If it's private money (Leicester Universities money) - then they surely can spend their money on anything they please.
    I have a feeling a certain amount is from the City Council coffers (my taxes).
    I don't particularly mind. Obviously some will mind.
    I have a feeling most people here don't care.
    I have not read of any local outrage due to this being done.
    I didn't mean to be rude earlier - I think I might have been' though. So, sorry.
     

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