Republicans are ruining American education

Discussion in 'Politics' started by unfocusedanakin, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    Anyways

    Its likely not a coincidence that the worst ranked states in education also typically vote overwhelmingly Republican
     
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  2. mcme

    mcme lurker

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    Better suited to manual labor. What an interesting concept.
    It's my opinion that a person who can choose to follow a career in manual labor (as a carpenter/contractor, I build stuff and make sawdust) despite being educated (architectural engineering) because of the opportunity to earn enough to pay the bills, is far better off and vastly more intelligent than a person who lives in Oklahoma, and desires and trains only to be a school teacher knowing full well the earning potential of that position.
    A person should be paid to the level they do, not do to the level they're paid. Maybe if teachers in Oklahoma produced more well rounded and capable young adults, the state economy would rise to the point where the educators will be rewarded.
    Mocking the hardworking people who pay their bills as uneducated or better suited to something beneath yourself will only breed contempt, especially as you ask them for more tax money so you can be paid more.
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    When I cut and paste I use the quote feature.
    I never said everyone is close minded, I said a good education broadens your outlook.

    Carlin pretty much said it all in his video, except for the specifics, that's why I suggested the book.
     
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  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So you have nothing to offer?
     
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  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Thank you for your input
    Those who earn the most money are the most intelligent.
    Those who choose a lower paying career are not very intelligent.
    Higher pay always equals better job performance.
    But, teachers who want higher pay are not devoted to their profession and are just in the field to make money. (Which would seem to make them highly intelligent but the Republicans continually bash them if they strike for more pay).
    The reason poor students don't do better is always the teachers' fault, and only the teachers' fault.
    Poor economic conditions are because of poor teachers.
    If low income teachers would just work harder, as they are lazy and stupid, the entire economy would balloon and then they will be paid more.

    Commenting that under educated manual workers need to have a sound base in critical thinking skills is mocking them.
    We should never ask for more tax money to improve our schools, as money never solves anything...although those who earn the most are the most intelligent, our president is a perfect example of that fact.
     
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  6. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    Yeah, thats not how I meant it at all. You're reading way too deeply into what I said. I have respect for blue collar workers. I share a life with one .

    But i also think teachers have an enormous responsibility and should be well compensated for it.

    See how that works? How you can respect two completely different professions? Amazing isnt it?
     
  7. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    It's just something else to draw the ire of conservative backlash. There was a time when conservatism applied to things like limited government and fiscal responsibility. But then, religion and old time values bled into the mix and we have social conservatism. And now, the social conservatives are upset because--surprise!--change. They seem to be the group most resistant to change. We live in a transitional period in time, where the economy is shifting from one based in blue collar jobs in manufacturing and industry, to a more white collar economy. More people are working in offices and in cities than ever before.

    Now, the question is, where does the outsourcing of jobs factor into this? Did it cause this economic shift? Or was it simply another result of it? I think it's the latter, myself. Time moved on; Bachelor's Degrees became the new high school diploma; tech jobs opened up by the thousands. People love to point out how many jobs were lost under so-and-so's administration and the deterioration of Detroit and the Rust Belt. And yes, for the people caught up in it--the individual families and workers who suddenly had nothing when another Ohio factory closed--it was devastating. But, the low-paying, manual labor jobs in this country that have been lost, were replaced by higher-paying tech jobs. If Republicans are going to remain relevant in the 21st century, we're going to have to change with the economy, and really take a serious look at how education will play into that, and prepare our young people to work in an economy our parents and grandparents will not recognize. We need to progress and stop trying to drag this country back to some distorted version of a 1950's utopia that only existed because the rest of the world was still digging out of the rubble of WWII.

    Remember, it was the conservatives who balked when McDonald's workers wanted $15 an hour. It was Republican governors who prevented states from raising minimum wage. They didn't think someone flipping burgers for a living should be the financial equivalent of a middle class office worker. The days of an assembly line worker placing the same bolt through the same hole 3,000 times a day and making enough to own a home in the suburbs, two cars, and take his wife and two children down to the shore for two weeks every summer, are over. And they're not coming back. And it's not because of failed economic policy but because of complex web of intricacies that involved everything from the Marshall Plan to the invention of the home computer. I'm sure there were people who stood in the way of progress back in the 1850's when the country's economy shifted from from agrarian to industrial as the Industrial Revolution gained momentum; I'm equally as sure they got run over by progress. The economy, country, and world are changing as a whole; adapt or get run over.

    And it all begins with education.
     
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  8. mcme

    mcme lurker

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    I do see how it works. I have a few friends who are school teachers, some in private/ Catholic schools, some in public. While I like them all on a social level, I wouldn't want all of them to have had my daughter in their class.
    Anyone who has a job working for someone else has the great responsibility of doing their best so the end result benefits everybody involved. Including school teachers. Some people realize that and take that responsibility seriously, and some don't, including school teachers. The best compensation should go to the best performers, not just everyone who got the job. I'll never be in favor of a blanket wage for a specific job. The ones who earn the most should always be the ones who are the most diligent in whatever field they choose. Some fields just don't pay as much as others, and it's a person's own choice to enter that field or not.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The teaching profession is not assembly line work. All teachers do not get the same product every day with the same quality and potential for improvement.

    You seem to be implying merit based pay for teachers, if I am correct please tell me how that will work.
     
  10. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    Commission for every A?
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Great, all my students get an A.

    Give me the money.
     
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  12. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    I wasn't offering a viable solution you know. Just assuming how one might propose how it would work. I'm with you though. I don't see how a "good teacher" is quantified.
     
  13. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    And Quark's point is?
     
  14. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    Something about vaping at Starbucks.
     
  15. mcme

    mcme lurker

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    The carpentry and building I do isn't assembly line work either. Every home and project is different from its size and trim schedule, to it's placement on its lot and the improvements needed to put it there. Yet overall, I come in under budget, ahead of time, and with no compromise in quality.
    No teacher is saddled with all dullards, and non are blessed with all Westinghouse finalists. There should be a way to assess the attitude towards education and the knowledge instilled in the students by any given teacher. And that effort put forth by the good teachers should be rewarded more than the effort put forth by the teachers who only care about making sure every contractual day off is used every year.
    In my business it's word of mouth. Perhaps that'd work in education also.
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    When you work on a carpentry project you make sure you have the best or at least adequate tools. You search through piles of lumber to pick out pieces that are straight, true, and sound. Sometimes you buy wood of certain type or moisture content. You employ competent helpers, or they get fired.
    In short you have a lot of control over your materials, tools, and workers.

    Now let me give you an example of how it often works in schools.
    I was employed in a district that had two high schools. They were situated about a mile apart. We'll call them East and West. The West school consistently performs well with a high rate of graduation and student achievement. The East school is consistently worse off with a high rate of non graduates and lower student achievement. Obviously the West school has better teachers and they should be paid more than the East teachers.

    I worked in both schools at different times. While I was at the West school I would have received a high pay...at the East school a lower pay.
    Was I better teacher at one school and worse at the other?

    Not really.
    What's going on in this district is that it was once a rural district but as the nearby city grew it became suburban and rural.
    The poor were forced out of the city as it rebuilt, into low rent apartment buildings.
    As the poor moved into the district the school board redrew the attendance lines. The poor went to the East high school, the rich and more affluent to the West high school.
    But that wasn't enough. Remember the two schools are only about a mile apart, so cross busing is very easy. All discipline problems were sent to the East high school. Special need students were sent to the East high school. English as a second language students, East high school. At one time we had students from twenty different countries in the school.
    So what happens?
    Discipline problems, low academic scores (all students must take state and national exams), poor graduation rates.

    It's like I give one contractor the best tools, supplies, and workers and the other flea market finds, cull lumber, and unskilled workers and then tell them to go and compete.....and may the best man win (or woman).
    You can put all the effort you want into building that wall with 2 x 4s that squirt water in your eye every time you pound a nail. Next week it's gonna warp.
    Or build a deck with pressure treated wood and one with Trex and come back next year and compare the results.
     
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  17. I'minmyunderwear

    I'minmyunderwear Newbie

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    i kind of thought this was more of a steel reserve crowd.
     
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  18. Aerianne

    Aerianne Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    My granddaughters are in the TAG class so that teacher's class is full of students who achieve more.
     
  19. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    I think you're missing the point .The issue here isnt blanket wages. Teachers in states like Oklahoma are paid on a scale depending on tenure, education, and I assume achievement. As well as what the tax bracket looks from district to district.

    the issue is that teachers in Republican majority states are vastly underpaid compared to other states. And education in general is underfunded compared to other states. Meaning students from these states are released into the world undereducated and unable to meet the demands of a changing economy. Neglecting the education system has a ripple effect that can be seen for generations
     
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  20. mcme

    mcme lurker

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    To use the carpentry/educating analogy once more, when you order 8 or 10 thousand pieces of lumber, you can't select only the best ones and disregard the rest. The skill comes in using the pieces as they are best suited, and leaving them all doing what they are capable of to the best of their ability happily. Not creating a scrap pile of useless junk just because it doesn't fit some perfect description. Some things are long, straight and true, some are better cut up for bridging or support nailers. It's all equally important to the finished product. Happy and perfect where it's ended up. Trying to use the wrong piece for the wrong job will result in the failure of both the piece and the installer.
     
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