Religious belief as a "meme"?

Is there someone among you who thinks that religious belief is a kind of meme and who can explain how this meme works?

 

I definitely look at religion as a meme. And look at some of the top-knotch ingredients it has to really stick itself to society. Religion is like a fish-hook. Once you takes the delicious-looking bait your either stuck and submit, or doomed to terrible pain and suffering if you try to get away.

Religion offers:

-A reward to it's followers
-Punishment to those who do not follow.
-A way to explain the unexplainable.
-A sense of meaning to the meaningless.
-A way to reconcile the loss of loved ones in our minds.
-Hope of living beyond physical death (who doesn't want that!)

And all just the tip of the iceberg. I am sure others could come up with much more that this meme offers people, why it is so powerful, and why it has lasted so long as other fads in society come and go like the waves of an ocean.

The religious meme spreads very aggressivly. If they don't reel you in with the delightful benefits they will use fear. Either with merciless crusades or forceful legislation. This meme promises either great benefits or grave reprocussions. Eternal happiness or eternal torment. This, of course, is not the case for every religion, but is the case for the popular and wide-spread religions (Islam and Christianity, for example). And what is a successful meme if not a popular one?

Of course there are a plethera of religions, each it's own meme that spreads differently and with different measures of success. But I figure you would want to talk about the most successful version of such meme, therefore I am speaking of the worlds two largest religions when I speak of religious memes in this post.

 

the idea of a "religious meme" is really interesting and does a nice job of explaining why a false belief could still propogate itself effectively and spread far and wide. one could argue that a god-meme is beneficial because it does improve a person's perception of life and self, and that person could win out against a meme-less person in a natural selection battle. other than the truthlessness of the delusion, what is the harm in having a large infected society?

but, what does the meme-less, truthseeking person do to battle a spreading mind virus? use science and reason, the opposite of 'faith'. but i wonder if they have a chance - once the meme mutates into a stronger version of religion and starts proclaiming, "people with the meme shall live, people without the meme shall die" i think that a fight of 1 against 4 (roughly the number i think) is a losing battle and freethinkers will be exterminated.

 

Sera

Excellent post..

Occam

 

Sure this template works for the two bully religions.. I don't really see how you could fit the entire spectrum of spiritual belief into it though. Judaism, for instance, lacks any punishment for NOT being a Jew nor does it promise a reward for being one.. Traditional Buddhism and Taoism deny the need for explaining this reality and sometimes even reaffirm its meaninglessness. There are also a myriad of religions which don't touch on the topic of the afterlife whatsoever..

 

HippyGirl

Occam thinks the actuall numbers of humans 'infected with the
religous meme', as a proportion of the total number of people alive.
Is falling. And has been falling constantly for the last 100 years.

The meme 'reason/science' truely took hold centuries back and has been
gaining ground every year..Not so much in direct converts but in swaying
MANY to a middle ground that plays lip service to both.
Because while the religious meme is all words.
The reason/science meme changes reality.
The religious meme is about accepting.
The reason/science meme is about doing.

And occam thinks there will be no fight between the two.
Religion surrendered it's once iron grip on western society a long time ago. And there is no going back.
The greatest step being the US constitution.
A nation where no religion, by law, could force it's beliefs on individuals.
One reason why so many wanted to get in.
And why theocracies like iran and tyranical theistic groups detest the US.
For to them..the great satan is a place where their beliefs are just beliefs.
NO BETTER BY LAW THAN ANY OTHERS.

Occam thinks over the comming centuries religion will suffer a general decline in numbers. There will be no final battle between religion and science.
Because the religions meme has already surrendered any thought of dominance over humanity.
Things like penecillin and TV guarantees that.

Occam

 

Which is why I mentioned in my post that I was using the world's two largest religions as an example. Since they are the largest right now, they are the most successful at this moment. And it is no coincidence that the world's two largest religions (or memes, as we are defining them here) have very, very similar elements.

Each paticular belief that spreads would be an individual meme, you can't include all religions under one meme. Each meme is an individual idea, fad, song, belief, etc...it is basically information that spreads from mind to mind (almost like a virus - but a virus of thoughts and ideas rather than anything biological).

 

Well, a meme has to come along or be created that destroys the other. Or the current meme has to destroy itself. My husband and I have talked about this amongst ourselves before. We figure that some meme just as powerful and gripping would need to come along to replace it. We have even considered what that meme could possibly be. Either that or the current meme evolves into something rediculous that no longer holds the power it once had.

There are many memes battling against the religious meme today. This is why we are seeing the culture clash we see in the US today.

First of all, the religious meme has evolved here in the US. Religion in the US means something entirely different than in other places in the world. Religious people used to (and still do in other areas of the world) eat, breath, wake, and sleep their religion. Their religion is a lifestyle. Here in the US religion is something people do on Sunday's or when it is convienent. Sure, they believe in god all the time, but they don't practice the religion. They cherry pick through the bible, or just forget about it when they want (look at Pat Robertson, and this is a christian leader here in the US). Most in the US hardly know anything about their religion or it's history. The christianity meme is losing it's power - or is it adapting to the lazy american lifestyle? I don't pretend to know, although I do, of course, have a preferable outcome

Other memes that may be combatting the religious meme? I can think of a few. Civil rights - espcially in the area of womens rights and gay rights. Trustng science to answer our questions is another example. And Hollywood is constantly throwing out fads and songs that catch on like wildfire and undermine christian beliefs, but for a short time. Fads, popular songs, things like that don't last. Any meme that will be any compitition for the major religious memes will have to be something long lasting and powerful. And I don't think it exists yet...but if anything that exists now will do it I think it will be our trust in science and our progression of civil rights.

I have also considered that maybe people would keep their spirituality and lose the dogma of religion. Spirituality makes people's lives easier, dogma makes it harder. I bet we'll see things like meditation, self-dicipline, and enlightenment sticking aroud for a while - those are all ancient memes and maybe not as wide spread as others, but very strong nonetheless.

But one thing is for sure. Just because a meme exists within our society does not mean it is good for us.

Can you tell I have given this subject matter a lot of thought? I am glad to see a post on the topic here on the hipforums!

 

Sera

Yes..it shows...as occam has passion to gain an accurate understanding
of many topics.
You also display the wonderous thing called wonder
And desire to understand.
Memes are a truly interesting subject.

In analysis a religion DOES act with a vector, just as a virus.
It gains converts with little or no immunity. And spreads quickly in demographic areas where a social system has allowed such lack of immunity.
Cells of other memes are resistant.. or display a resistance due to the structure of their accepted meme.
[ as a logical mind will ask...show evidence]
[Or another religious meme will say...'they follow a false god']
[or a kid with plastic cloths and a reactive attitude' will say...fuck U and everyone you know]

The clasification of 'belief systems' into memes
IS an advance in human thought.
It allows a more accurate perspective both socially and conceptually..
Of what we really are.

Occam

PS..
An what potential convert has the least immunity to a meme?
A child.
Now why does the church hold the religious eductaion of children so highly?
And practice it so vigorously.

 

Heaven

Hell

God did it

God loves you

They're in heaven, and you'll see when when you die

as above

(I don't know why I posted this, I just kinda felt like it )

 

Denial of inner spiritual pain that is necessary for growth.

The world will be destroyed if we do not use our power to care for it.

Everything has a natural cause.

Pride in living your short life to the fullest extent possible.

Denial and false exceptance. The atheists only 'defense' against death.

God did it, you percieved.

 

Kharakov

A digression...please
A question of great import to occam

If evil natural?
To all.
What human act is it that makes YOU gasp in revulsion and distress.
Clenches your guts in denial that such a thing could happen.?
Both your emotion AND your reason,,at last in total agreement..

SCREAM...stop

The only un-natural act there is.
Evil
Son of EGO.

Occam

 

Most atheists I know, myself included, just accept that death is a part of life... without death, life could not exist..

 

Dan

There is a ditty

"without life, there can be no death. And without death, there can be no life."

This is correct if there is no acausal creation of life by a 'god'.

Occam

 

OK, i have no idea what you're talking about.. but i'll just nod and gently back away...

(PS, being an atheist, it's obvious that I do not believe in god, so if i'm understanding what you're saying, then I agree with you, otherwise, I don't )

 

Well. I was just thinking about Ego last night, couldn't get to sleep as my mind careened along dark paths of misery, contemplating the existence of the dark paths we are all forced to walk at times.

There is a fine line of misery, a slight distinction between heaven and hell. Understanding that God does everything, that all you feel is from God without feeling that the actions God makes are your actions. Understanding that you are an individual other than God perceiving God's actions even when God places pain within you that you wish God to remove, pain that causes you to feel that you should take control which is completely illogical, since God has created this pain to give you a wierd (evil) thrill, an ignorant sense of your 'own' control.

Of course, I play video games and enjoy them... What can I say about the pleasures of success? It's pleasurable evil...

Anyway, you already know that evil exists to make needy children feel good about what they do. A cop feels good busting criminals, rapists, child molesters, etc. A teacher feels good battling ignorance. A volunteer feels good fighting sickness and poverty. A farmer feels good battling hunger. A carpenter feels good because people need homes to live in.

A doctor feels good curing cancer. A psychiatrist feels good helping people sort out their problems.

Why all the problems? Evil would not exist if people didn't exist who need God to create pain and misery so their ego's can gain pleasure from combating 'evils'. Look at the source of the problem- people who need to be elevated above others by their so called 'acts of good' which are entirely dependant upon God creating evil to combat.

People who do not believe in God need to be provided with some sense of meaning and good in their lives. Thus, God creates misery for them to "combat". Of course, their need for this misery is the whole reason for it's existence, but they are ignorant to this little fact, busy defeating the evil that God creates around them until they die a death, having lead a meaningless life of dependance upon others misery for their own pleasure.