Recent Saudi Tragedy

First off, I'll be the first to admit that I do not agree with US foriegn policy espescially in the Middleast. But, what about this most recent event - 22 dead - anyone they found who was not Muslim was killed. As sick and disgusting that I think our 'american' actions are - what is up with this? Why the bloodshed? It just seems unreal to me that the fact that I am not Muslim, that somebody would wish to kill me for it. I am a kind loving human being that hopes for the best for everyone in this world - Why would anyone want me to die?

 

Well, you see, that's what makes them extremists.

 

islam is not what you are being told by george bush ...its not a peaceful misunderstood religion well its misunderstood by the many nice people who are muslims

if you can find anyone muslim or non muslim who wishes to debate this using islamic sources of scripture in english or arabic I post on a site of mainly ex-muslim atheists and humanists

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

if you can disprove any of the things this site says the site will be taken down
Ive posted there for a couples of years as well as on lots of islamic sites and havnt seen anyone disprove the claims the site makes
Id very much like to

 

Islam's like Christianity... some strains of it are peaceful and tolerant and others are fanatic and violent. The Sufi sect for example (it's third after Sunnis and Shiites) is the mystic branch of Islam - bit like the Pentacostals, if I spelled it right - and it's pretty benign, which meant that they got beat up by the Sunnis. It's just that, the way things are today with the Arab world in turmoil, there are more militant and extremist Muslims than Christians around.

Both Christianity and Islam got to where they are today because they were used to promote war and conquest by ancient empires.

 

well if you can find a peaceful sufi that can prove that islam is peaceful send him along

the challenge is open to sufis

 

Saying that Islam's like Christianity is just plain wrong. Try reading history sometime. Islam expanded itself almost exclusively through violence. Mohamed started his career as a prophet by slaughtering Jews in Medina. He did everything through conquest. His followers continued this for him. Until you see Islam as a 7th century warrior cult, you'll never understand it.

Christianity , by contrast, begin its first three centuries with Christians enduring torture, crucifixion and being fed to wild animals. All of this was because of their peaceful protest of the Roman government. Christianity began as the world's first Gandi style, non-violent movement. Later it was perverted and used to manipulate people, or used as an excuse for violence.

Just look at the sayings of Mohamed and the sayings of Jesus to compare. Just look at what Islam is today. Islam is responsible for the oppression of women and slavery where ever it exsists.

Please don't say Islam is like Christianity. Or Islam is like Buddism. Or Islam is like any other religion in the world. Islam stands out on its own as the most oppressive and violent religion in history.

 

How conveniently you brush aside the centuries of violence perpetrated upon Jews, Muslims and assorted non-conformist sects within Christianity itself in order to jsutify your singular bigotry against Isalm.

All you spout is cultural relativism which has little bearing on the views of those you claim are so oppressed by the religion. The true oppression comes from governments we install who use religious soundbites to mask otherwise non-religious aspirations for control.

In the end ALL organised relgion is subjugation and indoctrination.

 

I would NEVER deny that Christianity has a messed up past.
Is it like Islam? No.

I don't agree with the idea that all religions or cultures are the same.
I don't think it is funny that the Koran orders Muslims to
"Kill the unbelievers where ever they are found."
I also don't believe the GW Bush bullshit about Islam being a religion of peace.

 

Actually Islam and Christianity are very much alike. Both are religions of the Book, both are monotheistic, both recognise the role of Christ in the divine plan (one accepting him as God incarnate, the other as a prophet), both arise from judaic thought and practice, and both have justified centuries of barbaric imperialist ambitions as the "will of God".


Your like or dislike of Islam does nothing to detract from those parallels.

 

The Muslim mentality

Let’s look deeper into the current conflict ongoing in Iraq of which terrorism is quite related. For that matter, the Israeli-Palestine conflict is related. It boils down to problems with Arabs… more specifically their religions. We shouldn’t dance around this simple fact, it is modern man pitted against the Muslim mentality… a mentality which is nothing less than the vestiges of the Dark Ages. The Muslim mentality, infected with religious ideology, hasn’t evolved with the times like Catholicism. At one time, the Catholic mentality was equally narrow-minded but began to change after the horrible days of the Spanish Inquisition. In the last century or two the Catholics developed a live-and-let-live attitude. Middle Eastern religions haven’t yet subscribed to that and thus are still fighting Charlemagne.

To boil this down even further, religious fervor is nothing less than insanity, pure and simple; this is evidenced in many ways, most notably in religious logic. This Middle East lunacy isn’t just because of their religious fervor but also because of a nationalist fervor, which adds the effects similar to Nazism, Stalinism or Maoism. Infected in two major ways, it is a multidimensional mental illness. Not only are Muslims a danger to the world but a danger to themselves as well. This is well documented… it’s not just Shiites vs. Sunnis, it’s also Muslims vs. Kurds, Muslims vs. Hindus, Muslims vs. America, Muslims vs. Israel but to make this brief, it is Muslims versus almost everybody and everything. It’s worse than that however; in their bombsights are housewives, the milkman and even kindergarteners. Who in their right mind cannot say this is madness?

Anyone intelligent should recognize this lunacy, but alas, apparently most Arabs do not. It is strange because collectively, as a society, they were a very intelligent people 3,000-5,000 years ago. At one time, Arabs seemingly had a monopoly on intelligence… the Sumerians who developed the art of writing in 3,000 B.C. for example. They were also once the most advanced in mathematics. In fact, much of the knowledge the ancient Greeks obtained came from the Middle East. What happened? Religions, that’s what… in many ways the scourge of mankind.

I don’t know what made the Catholics less fanatical but it happened nonetheless. Perhaps the Catholics finally saw the downside of a fanatical attitude. So what is the holdup with the Muslims? Perhaps it is also the cursedness of a long memory. However unrelated, in the Serbian-Bosnia conflict memory played a big role… wrongs from centuries past were never forgiven. Maybe forgiveness helped Catholicism evolve, being a cornerstone of Christianity. At any rate, the Spanish Inquisition is an example where unchecked fanaticism will go and Islam is knocking on the door… everyone’s.

Inquisition II?

Whether Muslims like it or not, thankfully civilization will not allow another Inquisition… and a damn good reason to have World War III to stop it. If I was an Arab, I’d be trying to revive my ancient heritage and find a way to contribute to civilization instead of trying to destroy it. I certainly wouldn’t be whining about being a second-class society, as if forced to be… blaming everybody else when in fact their own Arab governments are the problem. Monarchies want their citizen to feel second-class, that’s how they stay in power. Kings promote the idea it is all America’s fault... as they lavish themselves in riches.

Even though in essence World War III has begun, it is up to the Arabs to put a stop to it… to limit the damage. It is time for them to realize their lunacy and where it is leading them. Suicide bombers inflicting death and injury to innocents is not only lunacy, it is despicably evil. It is time for Arabs to forget medievalism and look to the future; it is also the time because the patience of the west won’t last.

Is the west therefore innocent? Assuredly not, simply because I don’t think political innocence is possible. Has the west taken advantage of the Middle East? Yes, often in the early days of the 20th century including the British invasion of Iraq in 1917 but that’s human nature… everyone strives to get the upper hand, even Arabs. The Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 is another shameful episode. Yet attitudes have improved regarding national sovereignty in the last 50 years and Muslims should realize that. Unfortunately that doesn’t undue the damage already done, to Kurdistan for example.

The current occupation of Iraq isn’t 20th century colonialism but the justifiable product of a new concern… worldwide security. However unfortunate the realities of human nature have been, and are, intellectual competition is a far better than killing innocents for political gains. While not all Muslims are terrorists, their silent majority seemingly condone innocents being murdered in the name of Islam. Where is their outrage? While their outrage directed towards the west is sometimes warranted, nary a whisper is heard about Arab atrocities.

If Muslims were openly critical of themselves or the criminal acts of others in the name of Islam, then I wouldn’t bother… but these things need to be said, said often, and said until it no longer applies. Even though Islam deserves bashing, I find it admirable the United States government has been silent. Even the media has been silent. Rightfully so, I suppose, individuals should be held responsible, not their religion. However, for many people, Jews are still held accountable for the crucifixion of Christ. The Jewish religion, it seems, is held responsible for the act of every individual Jew. Why not Islam for the acts of Muslims? That’s Middle East thinking however, not acceptable in the west… otherwise I should wonder who assassinated Abraham Lincoln, was it the Presbyterians? Along those lines, as Muslims usually draw them, America should be off the hook. It wasn’t America that invaded Iraq but the religion George W. Bush belongs to. In the name of the Sixth Street Baptist Church in Crawford, Texas, George declared a holy war against Islam.

Since the wrongs committed throughout history seem to linger, one always wonders at what point they should be written off… forgotten. Nothing seems to be forgotten though. I’m surprised Egypt isn’t contemplating war with Iran because the Persians once conquering them 3,000 years ago. Or perhaps Iran should contemplate war with Greece for taking Egypt away in 332 B.C. If that is being too silly, then perhaps the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) who conquered Iraq in the 16th century should be able to keep it. At some point we must forget Kuwait was once carved away from Iraq by the British. Or did they really take it from the Ottoman Empire? Maybe it was Mesopotamia. At some point we must forget the American southwest was carved out of Mexico. Indians should forget Mexico took it from them. God only knows who the Indians stole it from.

 

Now that youve demonstrated an ability to copy/paste someone elses thoughts, how about providing some of your own?

 

Sufis are very awesome....


Islam means Peace suprisingly. Show me where in the Koran does it say to kill unbelievers?? You only kill the unbelievers if they are killing you.
Muhammed said that to kill one innocent person is like killing all of humanity!

 

I worked in the oil industry for 15 yrs. for various oil companies back in the 1980's. I was offered a job in Qatar but turned it down. As a woman, I would not have been allowed to drive a car or go out of the compound on my own. But, the salary I was offered was very tempting -- I turned it down anyway. But many of my co-workers shipped out to the Middle East, chasing the big bucks for themselves and becoming little pawns for Big Oil.

Yes, it's sad when innocents are killed, including oil company employees. But they knew they were taking a risk being over in the Middle East during such a volatile time between Westerners and the Arab countries. They are targets over there and they will continue to be. And they are being handsomly compensated for their loyalty to Big Oil.

This just continues to prove the point that we need to search out and fund alternative energy sources. The Japanese have been producing hybrid cars for years and it seems to finally be catching on in the U.S. -- finally!!! And Bushman's contention that we could have stopped the rise in oil prices by drilling in ANWAR is a fucking joke. The oil produced from ANWAR would provide oil to this country for maybe a month.....doesn't seem worth destroying pristine wilderness for our selfish consumptive needs.

But does Bushboy fund research and development of alternative energy sources???? No, because he's a fucking oil man. It's his family heritage....it's in his blood and he won't change. And we all continue to be oil whores...all of us.

 

Now, I hardly like to defend Bush on anything as I can't stand the man, but sweatinthesouth, he did earmark 5 Billion towards R&D for hydrogen power just last month - its a drop in the bucket, but at least its a start.

 

It's not anywhere near 5 billion, and the R&D is going to find ways of extracting hydrogen by using fossil fuels to do so. This makes no sense at all.


http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18741

 

islam doesnt mean peace it means submission


and I suppose charles manson could say kill one innocent person is like killing all of humanity! too

how does one define innocence how would your average psycho prophet cult leader define innocence

mohammad fought lots of battles only one of which was defensive all the rest were against people who didnt want to be muslims

in a islamic state christians and jews can live but as second class citizens they get dhimmni status, pagans and non-people of the book and atheists like me get killed or made into slaves if your a real enemy and fight against islam you get crucified

and as I have said earlier if you can dig up a peaceful sufi that can prove that islamic scripture is peaceful or that mohammed himself wasnt a cruel man who tortured people and used offensive war slavery and rape to spread his religion Id like to talk to him

whether its possible to find a peaceful interpretation for islam is pretty important as it stands I dont see that ever happening
the advantage christianity had is allthough the old testament is really nasty and as bad as islamic scripture, they have jesus.

that doesnt mean Im pro christian just a important point to note for people who think that islam will or is able to reform

there isnt any turn the other cheek peace and love, love your neighbour stuff in islamic scripture .

sufism is seen by most muslims as deviation I dont see even if it was peaceful it being able to bring about a reform of the basic religion as there are only a small number of muslims that are sufi

I think whats a better option is to expose all the nasty stuff so people will just leave it alone

 

Excuse me, Johny2mad but I speak Arabic. I was raised in a Muslim family.

Islam means PEACE not submission. Assalmu (Islam) Ailakum means peace be with you. Get your facts straight and stop gobbling propaganda like an obese white man at a chinese buffet.

Everything else after that is all lies just like above. Why dont you travel to many beautiful Arab countries. You dont have any proof. What you are saying is of pure ignorance. Open up a book instead of some fundamentalist Christian site reading about Islam. Its Bullshit like everything else you said.
Of course there is love your neighbor in Islam and Jesus. Jesus was called Isa and he was a great prophet to them. He preformed those same miracles mentioned in the Bible!

Do a search on "Hadith" on google if you really want to know what kind of man Muhammed was. He did not own slaves

I am willing to send you a copy of the Koran so you can expand your knowledge. It's just depending on you to get past your ignorant ego, and see the ultimate truth.

 

Here:

http://http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/mohamed/1424/index.shtml

also..
The Qur'an says very clearly: "To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow, let them not then dispute with you on the matter, but do invite (them) to your Lord: for you are assuredly on the Right Way. If they do wrangle with you, say, 'God knows best what it is you are doing.' 'God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ.'" (Al-Hajj: 76-69)


"Allah does not forbid you that you show kindness and deal justly with those who did not fight you in your religion and did not drive you out from your homes…" (Al-Mumtahinah: 8)

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." (Al-Baqarah: 190)


Finally the most important! Dive in!

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

 

I am a christian, but i also like to learn about other religions such as islam and buddhism, and to say that Christians have not caused any violence in the name of propogating their religious views is competely close minded. What about the Spanish Inquisition. Not only did they kill non catholics, they torchered them for hours upon hours. They even had devices in which they perfected over the years to put the "non belivers" in more pain. Next think about The Crusades. A battle to regain land back from the Islam religion, which started off as a way for the europeans to get spices, turned into a series of wars which killed many people out of both religions. What about the millions of people who were killed in the name of christianity. Hitler who was a christian killed off 6 million jews, poles,homosexuals, and gypsies; all because they were unclean and did not have his views, and the views of the German People. What about the "The Manson Family," they belived that he was Jesus, and they killed quite i few people as well.

I understand that Islam does have violent groups, but the Qu'aran states that they are indeed allowed to wage a Ji'Had, or religious war, to rid the people who threaten their religion. In all actuallity Islam and Christianity are not all that different. Both have the same roots with Abraham, and Islam even recognizes Jesus as one of the 16 prophets. (correct me if im wrong on the #)

All religions have violence, but to say that Islam is equal with christianity, or even greater is very wrong in my opinion. Think about it this way, you see what you have lived through, but both religions have been around for centuries. you have to view the past before you can make blatent staments in this time period.

 

johnny2mad is actually a pretty hard core atheist. he would only go to a fundamentalist christian site to find a way to fight fundamentalist christianity. all told, he's pretty fair in his dealing out of criticism of all world religions.