Real Ýslam is only in Quran

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Emre_1974tr, May 24, 2007.

  1. Emre_1974tr

    Emre_1974tr Member

    From Edip Yüksel's Manifesto:

    “O people, a proof has come to you from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a guiding light.” (4:174)

    “… and do not make corruption on the Earth after it has been reformed… ” (7:85)

    “It is one of the great ones. A warning to humanity. For any among you who wishes to progress or regress” (74:36-37).

    The influence of the religion concocted by clerics during the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties is still dominant in Muslim countries. The blasphemous idea that the Quran is incomplete, unintelligible, and insufficient for spiritual guidance created a huge demand for religious books, and clergymen with big turbans and long beards supplied volumes of them. The masses were told that those books were going to complete, explain, and detail the Quranic revelation. These clerics thus implied that God was not a wise and articulate author; He could not make His message sufficiently clear and he failed to provide guidance on many issues, sometimes even issues involving important spiritual principles and practices. Without these supplementary books, the Quran was of limited use to the individual seeking religious guidance. Some even went so far as to declare that reading the Quran alone would mislead the reader. Numerous books of hadith and sectarian jurisprudence (sharia) were labeled “authentic” and for all practical purposes, they replaced the Quran. The Quran was not a book to be understood on its own; people needed to read books written by professional narrators, collectors, editors, and scholars of hearsay and speculation. Many people got lost among the volumes of books written to interpret and explain the Quran and did not find sufficient time to study the Quran itself. The privileged few who did find that time, had little chance of understanding it, since their minds were tainted with man-made religious instructions, and their logic had been corrupted by contradictory teachings or what we call might call “holy viruses.”

    Although religious scholars, clerics and their blind followers have always demonstrated the utmost formal respect for the Quran as physical media, (the leather or paper on which the verses of the Quran were written) they lost faith in, and respect for its message. Verses of the Quran are hung in high places on the walls, touched and treated with utmost reverence, yet Muslims rarely refer to them for their guidance. They are too confused by the contradictory and tangled maze of thousands of hadith falsely attributed to Muhammad and lost among the trivial details of sectarian books. When they occasionally refer to the Quran, it is most likely to be in an abusive manner, abusing the verses by taking them out of context and using them as slogans to declare holy wars or justify aggression. The Quran that liberated people from the darkness of ignorance was transformed, soon after Muhammad’s departure, to a book whose verses were recited for the dead, an amulet carried by the mentally and physically sick, and a paper idol to be revered and feared.

    Though the Quran is considered one of the most read books, millions of Muslims read the Quran without understanding it. Even if their native language is Arabic, they are taught not to trust their understanding. The Quran might be the most read book, but unfortunately, due to the concerted effort of religious clerics, it has been turned to the least understood and the least followed popular book in history.

    When the mass reversion from the progressive and enlightening message of the Quran started, those who rejected the fabricated hadith and Sunna, the Arab version of Jewish Mishna and Gemara, they were labeled as “murtad” (apostates) and they were threatened, tortured and murdered by the followers of hadith and sunna. For instance, a critical study of the Muslim history will reveal that Abu Hanifa was one of those courageous monotheists (hanif) who was persecuted during both the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties. During his lifetime, he was accused of not accepting hadith. However, the murderers took advantage of his growing reputation after his death and led the creation of a Sunni sect falsely attributed to him.

    The Origins of Hislam

    After the death of the Prophet Muhammad, a diabolic event happened. In direct contradiction to the teachings of the Quran, male clerics dedicated the religion not to God alone, but to a “holy” corporation consisting of:

    God +
    Muhammad +
    Muhammad’s companions +
    The companions of Muhammad’s companions +
    Early sect leaders +
    Late sect leaders +
    Early scholars of a particular sect +
    Late scholars of a particular sect, and so on.
    The product of this corporation was the hadith (teachings attributed to Muhammad), the Sunna (actions attributed to Muhammad), the Ijma (consensus of a select group of early scholars), and the Sharia (religious decrees by early scholars). The result was numerous hostile factions that afflicted a great amount of division and atrocities in the land about thirty years after the departure of Muhammad (6:159; 23:52-56). This concoction of medieval Arab/Christian/Jewish cultures was introduced to the masses as God’s infallible religion, as delivered by the last prophet. The only thing actually delivered by God to Muhammad, however, was the text of the Holy Quran, which is set out as the final and authoritative divine message to humankind:

    “Once We recite it, you shall follow such a recitation (Quran). Then, it is We who will explain it.” (75:18-19)

    Unfortunately, ignorance, intolerance, misogynist teachings, superstitions, and outdated practices have accumulated over the centuries in interpreting and translating the holy book of Islam. It is time to re-introduce the actual message of the Quran. It is time to remove the accumulated layers of man-made dogmas and traditions that have attached themselves to the text. (6:21; 7:29; 9:31; 16:52; 39:2,11,14; 40:14,65; 42:21; 45.17; 74:1-56; 98:5).

    Under a very cruel theocratic state terror, many men mobilized to participate in the creation what we rightly call Hislam. They did not have much chance to add or subtract to what was considered The Quran, but there was a lot of room for innovations, superstitions, additions and distortions through fabricating hadith. When a man from Bukhara started collecting hearsay more than two hundred years after the departure of the prophet Muhammad, the landscape and social demographics were fertile for all kinds of theological concoctions and mutations. Those people and their parents had participated in numerous sectarian wars and atrocities. Many educated Gentiles, Christians and Jews were converted to Islam for dubious reasons. Most of these converts had never experienced a paradigm change; they just found it convenient to integrate their culture and most of their previous religious ideas with the new one. To justify and promote their version of religion, the elite started packaging and introducing their religious, cultural, and political ideas and practices under the brand names of hadith, sunna, commentaries, and fatwas. Besides, they fabricated numerous stories called “asbab ul-nuzul” (the reasons for revelation) about why each verse was revealed, thereby distorting the meaning or limiting the scope of many Quranic verses. There was a great effort and competition to distort the meaning of words, taking them out of context to promote the agenda of a certain religion, culture, tribe, sect, cult, or king. Male chauvinists, hermits, misogynists too took advantage of this deformation movement. Hearsay statements attributing words and deeds to Muhammad and his idolized comrades became the most powerful tool or Trojan horse, for promotion of diverse political propaganda, cultural assimilation, and even commercial advertisement. As a result, the Quran was deserted and its message was heavily distorted. 1

    Soon after Muhammad’s death, thousands of hadiths (words attributed to Muhammad) were fabricated and two centuries later collected, and centuries later were compiled and written in the so-called “authentic” hadith books:

    to support the teaching of a particular sect against another (for instance, what nullifies ablution; which sea food is prohibited);
    to flatter or justify the authority and practice of a particular king against dissidents (such as, Mahdy and Dajjal);
    to promote the interest of a particular tribe or family (such as, favoring Quraysh tribe or Muhammad’s family);
    to justify sexual abuse and misogyny (such as, Aisha’s age; barring women from leading Salat prayers);
    to justify violence, oppression and tyranny (such as, torturing members of Urayna and Uqayla tribes, massacring Jewish population in Medina, assassinating a female poet for her critical poems);
    to exhort more rituals and righteousness (such as, nawafil prayers);
    to validate superstitions (such as, magic; worshiping the black stone near Kaba);
    to prohibit certain things and actions (such as, prohibiting drawing animal and human figures, playing musical instruments, chess);
    to import Jewish and Christian beliefs and practices (such as, death by stoning, circumcision, head scarf, hermitism, rosary);
    to resurrect pre-islamic beliefs and practices common among Meccans (such as, intercession; slavery; tribalism; mysoginism);
    to please crowds with stories (such as the story of Mirage (ascension to heaven) and bargaining for prayers);
    to idolize Muhammad and claim his superiority to other messengers (such as, numerous miracles, including splitting the moon);
    to defend hadith fabrications against monotheists (such as, condemning those who find the Quran alone sufficient); and even
    to advertise products of a particular farm (such as, the benefits of dates grown in a town called Ajwa).
    In addition to the above mentioned reasons, many hadith were fabricated to explain the meaning of the “difficult” Quranic words or phrases, or to distort the meaning of verses that contradicted the fabricated hadith, or to provide trivial information not mentioned in the Quran (such as, Saqar, 2:187; 8:35… )

    Islam versus Hislam

    Let’s first check the Quran and enumerate some of the characteristics of Islam, the system of peace, submission and surrender to God alone.


    is not a proper name, but a descriptive noun coming from the Arabic root of surrendering/submission/peace, used by God to describe the system delivered by all His messengers and prophets (5:111; 10:72; 98:5), which reached another stage with Abraham (4:125; 22:78).
    is surrendering to God alone (2:112,131; 4:125; 6:71; 22:34; 40:66).
    is a system with universal principles, which are in harmony with nature (3:83; 33:30; 35:43).
    requires objective evidence besides personal experience (3:86; 2:111; 21:24; 74:30).
    demands conviction not based on wishful thinking or feelings, but based on reason and evidence (17:36; 4:174; 8:42; 10:100; 11:17; 74:30-31).
    esteems knowledge, education, and learning (35:28; 4:162; 9:122; 22:54; 27:40; 29:44,49).
    promotes scientific inquiry regarding the evolution of human kind on earth (29:20).
    rejects clergymen and intermediaries between god and people (2:48; 9:31-34).
    condemns profiteering from religion (9:34; 2:41,79,174; 5:44; 9:9).
    stands for liberty, accountability, and defiance of false authorities. (6:164).
    stands for freedom of expression (2:256; 18:29; 10:99; 88:21-22).
    requires consultation and representation in public affairs (42:38; 5:12).
    promotes a democratic system where participation of all citizens is encouraged and facilitated (58:11).
    prohibits bribery, and requires strict rules against the influence of interest groups and corporations in government (2:188).
    requires election of officials based on qualifications and principles of justice (4:58).
    promises justice to everyone, regardless of their creed or ethnicity (5:8).
    acknowledges the rights of citizens to publicly petition against injustices committed by individuals or government (4:148).
    encourages the distribution of wealth, economic freedom and social welfare (2:215, 59:7).
    promotes utmost respect to individuals (5:32).
    relates the of the quality of a society to the quality of individuals comprising it (13:11).
    recognizes and protects individual right’s to privacy (49:12).
    recognizes the right to the presumption of innocence and right to confront the accuser (49:12).
    provides protection for witnesses (2:282).
    does not hold innocent people responsible for the crime of others (53:38).
    protects right to personal property (2:85,188; 4:29; exception 24:29; 59:6-7).
    discourages non-productive economy (2:275; 5:90; 3:130).
    encourages charity and caring for the poor (6:141; 7:156).
    unifies humanity by promoting gender and race equality. (49:13).
    values women (3:195; 4:124; 16:97).
    values intellect (5:90).
    offers peace among nations (2:62; 2:135-136, 208).
    considers the entire world belonging to all humanity and supports immigration (4:97-98).
    promotes peace, while deterring the aggressive parties (60:8,9; 8:60).
    pursues the golden-plated brazen rule of equivalence, that is, retaliation with occasional forgiveness (42:20; 17:33).
    stands for human rights and the oppressed (4:75).
    encourages competition in righteousness and morality. (16:90)
    stands for peace, honesty, kindness, and deterring from wrong doing. (3:110)
    expects high moral standards (25:63-76; 31:12-20; 23:1-11).
    asks us to be in harmony with nature and environment (30:41).
    teaches that the only system/law approved by god is Islam (3:19,85).

  2. Ok, way too long, but just from reading the firsy 10 sentences I can tell you don't know what your talking about. Nobody except people of Bida'h (innovation, shi'ites and others) Say that the Qu'ran is incomplete. There is a science behind hadith, and it is not to say the religion is "incomplete". It does not say in the Qu'ran how to pray, nor does it say pray 5 times a day, nor does it say how to make wudu or many other important aspects of the religion.

    I'm not sure what ayah, but there is one that goes

    "If the messenger gives you something, take it."

    There are plenty of other ayahs that say basically the same thing, I will find them later, I just thought it was important to refute what you were saying with the quickness.

  3. Oh wow cat stevens is back !
  4. I' m not Cat, and he is crazy.
  5. Emre_1974tr

    Emre_1974tr Member

  6. Anyone who says that the hadiths are corrupt is probably a kafr since the directions on how to pray are in the hadiths and not the Qu'ran, therefor that person does not pray.
  7. Emre_1974tr

    Emre_1974tr Member

    From site:

    The primitiveness, the ugliness and the contradictions displayed in the name of Islam make it indispensable to clarify where we stand and what should be done to redirect people who have been diverted from the true path described in the Quran. Muhammad Ikbal, ill at ease at the sight of this state of affairs, had made the following remark in the 1920s: “If we are resolved to describe Islam as a system of superior values, we are obliged, first of all, to acknowledge that we are not the true representatives of Islam.” Muhammad Abduh had, before him, expressed the same truth in the following words: “If the word ‘Islam’ associates in the mind problems, dilemmas and contradictions, this is due not to Islam itself, but to the Muslims. So long as the books taught at Al Azhar and similar publications exert authority, I see no future for this community. The spirit needed to awaken the public is inherent in the Quran. Everything remaining outside the sphere of the Quran is but an obstacle preventing the Quran from being understood and experienced.” The famous Turkish poet Mehmet Akif Ersoy had the following to say to describe the plight of Islam that the interpreters had corrupted in total disregard of the clear indications of the Quran: “If it is the Quran that is understood by the word ‘Islam’, we must be in a position to acknowledge that there is no such thing as Islam, since the Quran has been raised back to the heights and the Islam on the earth today has lost all contact with it.” An American professor of Arabic origin, Ýsmail Faruki, interprets the situation as follows: “Islam is not represented by the lifestyle and behavior of Muslims, nor is it represented by any one period of history of Islam, nor by any book written on Islam. Islam is the Quran.”


    The majority of the public among whom the number of thinkers is considerable wants to see Islam in its original garb and cleansed from its corrupted state of today. This is not a populist movement. In other words what is purported here is not to make Islam attractive in the sight of large masses. The origin of it lies in the contradictions created between the Quran, which is the only source of Islam, and the actual practices developed throughout the ages. The objective is not to shape Islam into a new form that will seem attractive to the general public, but to reinstate the true Islam as revealed by God. The religion propounded in the Quran is, in fact, more gratifying for mankind, in which love and tolerance have a larger share. This is why it is generally appreciated. The main objective is not to please the public, but it is one of the consequences.

    A movement whose origin is mere enjoyment by the general masses would be inclined to shape the religious practices as they seem attractive to them, and in this design, cultural traits and political ends have a great share. The renaissance and the reform movement in the wake of the French Revolution may be shown as examples. Whatever is subjective – that is human – cannot be defined as religion.

    During the lifetime of the Prophet and the Four Caliphs there was no religious source other than the Quran (see Chapter 11). Men were not members of any particular sect. They practiced what the Quran prescribed to them and were free in points when there was no prescription in the Quran, according to their own appreciation, customs and conventions. No opinions were told in the name of such schools as Sunni, Hanafi, Shafi, Shii, Alawi or Jafari. They simply called themselves Muslims. And this fact satisfied them. Even the most illiterate of the Beduoins during the lifetime of the Prophet practiced Islam according to their own interpretations and were Muslims. That is what we are after today: to be simply a Muslim without having to belong to any particular sect and to abide by the Quran’s dictates which never change, which involve no contradictions and which are logical and rational as laid down by God. One God, one religion and one book will clear up the confusion that the masses are suffering at present. The aim is to stick to the Quran exclusively and to refuse to acknowledge all other sources. To interpret the elbowroom that the Quran recognizes as applied in a particular period is not our objective. However, if we conceive the free zone of action about which the Quran is reluctant as a place where we are left to our own devices, we can find the true path and correct the mistakes we have committed in the name of religion. The corruptions have been mostly in points where there is no explicit commandment in the Quran (see Chapter 39).

    In realizing this we must be conscious of the fact that it is God’s will. This may be established by the views expressed in Chapter 2 of our book about the exclusivity of the Quran. We shall be quoting verses other than those already cited about the self-sufficiency of the Quran to substantiate our claim. We shall presently take awareness of the fact that what has been alleged to be Islam up until now has been but a mixture of elements alien to Islam, a blend of hadiths and traditions and personal views which eventually assumed the garb of religion where truths and untruths have became inextricably mixed. Had the hadiths been a source of Islam like the Quran, it would have followed that it was hopelessly contaminated. To make clear that the sayings attributed to Muhammad cannot constitute a source of religion would liberate both Islam and the Prophet from irrelevant authorization. We shall see in the coming pages that the hadiths conflict with the Quran in many instances, that they are self-contradictory, illogical and that they have a supplementary character. When you see that the Prophet himself and the Four Caliphs were unwilling to see the hadiths written down (see Chapters 4, 10 and 11), you will see once again the rationale behind it and clear the path that leads to the Quran.

    Having cleansed Islam from alien elements and entrusted it to the sole exclusivity of the Quran, we must liberate Islam from the dominance of tabooed masters. Unless this is achieved, we cannot expect a rapprochement between the Sunni, and the Alawi, the Shii and the Hanafi, the Shafi and the Jafari. (We must make clear that we are Sunnis in the sense we are faithful to the Prophet, and Shiites and Alawis in the sense that we love Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet. Yet, we are not concerned with the linguistic meanings of these, but rather with the sociological meanings they have assumed throughout history and the structural formations that have come about, full of elements alien to the Quran.)

    67 – They will say: “Our Lord! We have obeyed our leaders and the elders, but they led us astray.”
    33 The Parties, 67

    The members of the Sunni branch of Islam must cease to dignify Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Maliki and Imam Hanbali. They must cease believing in such statements, as “Abu Hanifa was a great man; so great in fact that he had seen God in his dream 99 times.” Along with the aforementioned Imams, the traditionalists Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmizi, Abu Davud, etc. must clear the path that leads to the one truth, the truth of the Quran. The Shiites must cease to declare: “Our Imams are innocent, they never err” and rid themselves from powers assignable to the Prophet and the Quran. They must cease to believe in the existence of a source outside the Quran and of a religious leader other than the Prophet. They should know that to be a descendant of the Prophet does not mean he has holiness. The swerving from the straight path of Abraham’s father and of Lot’s wife is related in the Quran. Considering that someone related to a given prophet is liable to be doomed even during the lifetime of the prophet in question, ascribing superiority to a distant descendant of a prophet and, in so doing, being oblivious of the Book sent by God as a guide, a divine favor and a mercy (16 The Honey Bees, 89) is inconceivable. We must note that there is something that sects excel in: the skill of seeing through the faults of others. For instance, the Sunnis justifiably level criticism at the Shiites’ blind obedience to their imams, while they declare their own imams, Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali and Maliki, blameless and forget that they live by their instructions rather than by the precepts of the Quran. While they perform a binding duty of the religion according to a given sect, the very act they perform quite often proves to be unlawful according to another sect, and while the religion sent by God is one and unique, the emerging result is a plurality of concepts and practices (ee Chapter 14 on sects).The eye that skillfully detects the idolization of imams happens to be blind at its similar practice; the eye seems to be unable to see itself. While it accuses the other of disagreement, it styles itself as the only accepted denomination. If you follow the sayings of particular individuals, what makes you different from your brother? The person whom we revere happens to be the wisest person, while the others are but separatists. What is the exact criterion according to which these people can be classified? Had you adopted the Quran as the only authority, you would not have sought other guides. Their controversies make them forget this truth.

    The Quran, the revelation recited, contains all the messages that our Creator wanted us to know in the name of religion. It is God’s revelation that provides for every eventuality. Changes do occur in life, this is incontestable; but being able to provide for every probability is a miracle inherent in the structure of God’s revelation. This fact prevents the necessity of carrying out reforms. There are two communities, however, that draw their powers from the prevailing pseudo-religion: the fanatic atheists and the staunch defenders of adulterated practices misnamed religion. While the latter strictly abides by the said adulterated practices, the former makes every effort to swerve the latter from the path of salvation, trying to level criticism at the prevailing practices as false reasoning. On the other hand, the religious fanatic embraces his false convictions still more tightly, condemning those who remain outside their sphere, whom they style as wood for hell’s fire. Although their practices differ, both systems live on the same capital. These are the two main communities that are reluctant to return to the Quran. The infidel will go nowhere having been divested from the assets he would have used as means that would have enabled him to launch attacks on religion. The religious fanatic will be infuriated at having been stripped of his conventional trappings and will have recourse to the mechanisms of excommunication and hatred. We should not be surprised at the fact that the excommunicators are university professors; that the sects and orders find huge masses of supporters; and that these ideologies have their so-called intellectual media. We learn from the Quran that when a new idea crops up, the objection will be raised first by the prominent personalities of the established order. The professors, the staunch defenders of conservative practices, the sheikhs who based their orders on the established system will be in the forefront of those who attack the Islam of the Quran for fear of being divested of their authority and losing their charisma that they have built up throughout long years. If we remember that those who attempted the life of Jesus Christ were prominent rabbis, we must not be puzzled by the fact that those who argue against the Islam of the Quran are self-styled religious personalities. Religion’s worst enemy is the exploiter of religion. The majority of Muslims can see this illustrated in the inquisition that excommunicated people and in the act of confession. The same eye that sees this, happens to be blind to its own wrongdoing in contriving a new religion that aims to replace the one preached in the Quran. Islam also has been subject to cruel dealings just like during the war waged by the Christian clergy in their attempt to monopolize religion. Just as the miracles performed by saints and clerics have become legendary, so the sheikhs’ and imams’ power of sanctity and their alleged vision of God in their dreams made them necessity of their faiths.

    It depends on us to return to the Quran and avoid being corrupted by the personal viewpoints of the Arab-Omayyad sovereignty. In this way, a new link will be established between man and the religion alienated from man. The solution is not reform but rejection of what is foreign to the Quran. Nor is this movement an attempt at the reunification of sects. The reunification of phony ideologies would be absurd anyway. The religion is unique and all other attributions are irrelevant. The Quran that towers high above sects must be reinstated as the only and unique source. The Omayyads and the Abbasids attempted to bring reforms to Islam by adding adjectives like Hanafi and Shafi to their conceptions of Islam, transforming what was from God into human work. The thing that should be done today is not reform God’s religion but reform the pseudo-religion; in other words a restructuring. This is returning to the essence rather than reforming.
  8. Skizm

    Skizm Member

    Serious copy pasta going on up in hur
  9. stoney69

    stoney69 Member

    it does
  10. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Excuse me--but how fucking boring can religious people be? Live life. Love life. Love others. Respect others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Do not kill. Do not steal. Why do humans need thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of words that go on and on and on and on about the same thing that has been discussed for thousands of years? Get your PERSONAL beliefs in order.and then forget it. And if islam is so hard to understand-what good is it? Or any other sytem of beliefs ,for that matter. Christians do the same thing. Blab on and on and on. We are alive NOW. ONLY NOW.
  11. stoney69

    stoney69 Member

    so we conform to your set of rules ? your definition of how to love, live and respect ?
  12. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    If folks have to STILL be trying to figure out what something written means after this loooonnnnggg period of time--how clear can it be. Of what use is it? My rules? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I'm not a christian---but what else is needed? Are these written works ever to be relegated to their proper place in human history? Interesting history, but not relevant to real human understanding in this age of science. Look,I don't mean to disparage anyone in particular--but look around. How have these literary works affected the lives of humanity? Not so good,actually. The nature of existance is ineffable to us in our present forms. Whether other forms are forthcoming which will enable us to "understand" such as how,when,and why and especially WHO ,is the biggest mystery of all. We're all in the same boat. Relax and live. It just gets so old hearing people go on and on about what "is" and how others should relate to it.
  13. stoney69

    stoney69 Member

    folks will forever be trying to figure out 'something' for as long as humanity exists and have and will never manage to comprehend everything there's to it! which is what Islam is ...submission to the uncomprehendible, it is beyond human capability

    This holy book that you're attempting to dismiss as historical in the age of science comes from the lack of knowledge of whats actually in there, there's much depth defining variety of subjects on anatomy, zoology, planets, stars, seas, time, space and other sciences, as an example how about this detailed insight into our creation defined - when did the scientists in our 'age of science' come up with the answers ?

    Sura 22 : (4) O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood) then from a little lump of flesh,— some formed and some unformed (as in the case of miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will). And We cause whom We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed term, then We bring you out as infants,[] then (give you growth) that you may reach your age of full strength. And among you there is he who dies (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the miserable old age, so that he knows nothing after having known. And you see the earth barren, but when We send down water (rain) on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells and puts forth every lovely kind (of growth). (5) That is because Allâh, He is the Truth, and it is He Who gives life to the dead, and it is He Who is Able to do all things. (6) And surely, the Hour is coming, there is no doubt about it, and certainly, Allâh will resurrect those who are in the graves.
  14. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Go on,then. If you agree that existance is not to be understood by humanity,then it would follow that the writings that comprise islam,christianity and many others would seem to be attempts at making some sense of the questions mentioned -the how,when, why and WHO--that we now agree -can't be understood. That these questions cannot be answered is nothing new. What seems to be fairly new,some few thousands of years new anyway, is there are many who claim to know the answers. Some use the pulpit with varying amounts of adherants (dozens to millions)some use modern media to obtain peoples hard earned cash(freely given) some use shame,ostrasizm and sometimes law to gain adherants and others use more strict methods--that is murder and mayhem. All this over theories that we know--cannot be explained. I think I understand why this goes on. None of us wants to think that we are much like the other creatures on earth-that is ashes to ashes and dust to dust in a meaningless small stretch of life. That we are born,we do what we do and then we are gone forever from this little flying piece of real estate with not much meaning at all ,is scary and seems like a useless end to ourSELVES. And the kicker is--there may be a giant all knowing creator lurking around somewhere and we'd better be on our good behaviour and worship it--or not. And that's pretty much where we stand. I do find it a little difficult to understand why a female martyr doesn't get 72 little virgin boys to play with when men get theirs. Seems a trifle shallow to use sex as reward for murder. Or handling snakes to prove our fealty. Strange people ,we are.
  15. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

    We have to rely on personal testimony for that. Statistical averages are representative of no individual.
  16. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

    Seems no mystery to me. Our lives are a series of sensations some of which we call pleasant and some not so. It is a condition of embodiment. It is sensational.
  17. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    History is being made right now over religion. Statistical averages are representative and comprised of affected individuals. "Historians" ,as we speak, are detailing the effects on humans of written religions. Individual and otherwise.
  18. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

    History is always told in the present. Every system expresses as a bandwidth of degree, from too hot to too cold. Too hot and too cold are metabolic expressions. We have a comfort zone. There are no unworthy phenomena, only the accusation of unworthiness.

    As far as real Islam being only in the Quran,

    knowledge is, being shared.
  19. Emre_1974tr

    Emre_1974tr Member

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