Question about Mary and Joseph

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by feministhippy, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. feministhippy

    feministhippy Member

    This is something I've always wondered about. I don't know if this is going to come across as disrespectful, but I don't intend it to be, so please don't get irritated with me.

    According to Christian belief, Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. I got that much. Okay, so did she die a virgin? Or did she and Joseph have other children after Jesus was born? Or is that topic just avoided?

    Also, does Joseph play any part in Christian belief other than being Jesus's surrogate father?

    Yeah, I should probably just read the Christian bible at some point. There are a lot of things about Christianity I want to understand better. Religion itself is a really interesting thing. Besides, I've heard it was a good book. [​IMG]

    Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.
     
  2. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

    i can't speak for everyone, but i know of at least one of my Christian friends who beleive Jesus had siblings, and i think he used passeges to back himself up...i think He had siblings, but thats just going on my beleif...i tihnk catholics belive Mary to be a virgin at birth, but i may be wrong
     
  3. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    I have an eccentric take on it. Joseph's family tree is laid out in the bible, and the only reason i can think of for that is that he was the dad.
    they did have more, i am not sure how many, though one brother for sure.
     
  4. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    i think your right. she likely was a virgin at birth
     
  5. feministhippy

    feministhippy Member

    Okay. Thanks. :)
     
  6. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

    shuddup..i meant "a death"...i think i am wrong though,,,im probobly thinknig of something else
     
  7. feministhippy

    feministhippy Member

  8. Alsharad

    Alsharad Member

    Some, if not all, Catholics hold that Mary was a Virgin until she died and she never had original sin.

    I like what Kevin Smith said. "To believe in the virgin birth is an act of faith. To believe that a husband never got it on with his wife? That's just plain gullibility!"

    Oh yeah, and let's not forget that the marriage was not spiritually (probably legally) binding since it was never consummated. The two never became one flesh if Mary died a virgin. This is simply not supported scripturally.

    James is the half-brother of Jesus. And scripture makes mention of brothers and sisters too.

    On a related note, James was killed for speaking that Jesus was God. Imagine what it would take for you to be convinced to the point of death that one of your siblings was God incarnate.
     
  9. dutch_diciple

    dutch_diciple Member

    "And scripture makes mention of brothers and sisters too."

    Indeed, it's in the gospels. I don't know where, but it goes like this: The diciples come to Jesus to say that his mothers and brothers (!!!) are there to see him. Then Jesus says smth like 'those who hear the Word of God and obey it are called my mother and brothers" smth like that. Pretty clear, Mary had kids after she gave birth to Jesus.
     
  10. juggla

    juggla Member

    joseph basically disapears from the bible after the nativity.

    catholics believe mary was forever a virgin, and joseph was a older man who married her and took care of her and jesus, and jesus' brothers are actully either his cousins or josephs kids from a previous marriage.

    most non-catholic christian churches believe mary was a virgin until after she gave birth to jesus, then she had regular married relations with joseph.
     
  11. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    This is the most accurate and straight to the point answer. Covers all bases, nothing more to be said.
     
  12. TrippinBTM

    TrippinBTM Ramblin' Man

    Haha, that's quite a mind fuck :D

    Anyways, the catholic idea is that Mary's virginity was "restored" after the birth of Jesus and she remained celebate for her life. As has been said, that's a ridiculous notion in my opinion, poor Joseph...haha. Plus the mention of Jesus brothers and sisters (anyone got the specific verses?) kind of blows that one away.

    I'd be interested to know what the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek (or whatever it was written in) said. There is probably a difference between "brother" and "half-brother" which would be clear on reading it whether the brothers and sisters mentioned are truely just that. Mistranslation causes a lot of confusion, makes me wish we could all read Greek.
     
  13. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    Charlamagne was a descendant of Jesus and Mary Magdalene through his third born child Joseph and also interestingly a descendant of Josephus of Arimathea (Jesus brother James).

    The bloodlines of he messaniac descent meet the Sicambrian Franks (Tribe of Reuben) with the marriage of Faramund (Lord of Western Franks) and Princess Argott, daughter of Genobaud Lord of the Franks around 420AD.

    Their son was Clodion whose heir was Meroveus hence a 'Merovingian'.

    Charlamagne was the son of Pepin the Short who deposed the direct Merovingian descendent Childeric III, and Princess Bertha who was herself Merovingian.

    Charlamagne was not, in fact, a Merovingian as his fathers line had been bitter enemies of the Merovingians and had conspired with the Catholic papalcy to usurp the throne.








    My sources are quoted from geneologies provided by Laurence Gardner - Chevalier Labhran de Saint Germain, Presidential attache to the European Council of Princes and member of the Noble Household Guard of the Royal House of Stuart as Jacobite Historoigrapher Royal.
     
  14. 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
    7:2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.
    7:3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
    7:4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
    7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
    7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is away ready.
    (King James Bible, John)

    3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
    3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
    3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
    (King James Bible, Mark)

    13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
    13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
    (King James Bible, Matthew)
     
  15. dutch_diciple

    dutch_diciple Member

    wonderful lucy, thanx for the verses!

    here's another one:
    'When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.' Matthew 1:24-25

    By the way, it would be the best to have a catholic overhere to defend their stuff, we're talking about catholics now without being 100% sure what their arguments are, at least I'm not.
     
  16. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

    most catholics believe that jesus' brothers were joseph's children by a previous marriage.
     
  17. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    The Eastern/Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches have an interesting way of explaining this one. The issue is over the greek word "heos" which connotates a period in time and not change. Here are some other examples of how the word "until" is used both in the NT and the Septuagint:
    Deut 34:6 -- Moses died "and no one knows his grave TILL this day."


    2 Sam 6:23 -- Michal "had no children TILL the day of her death."


    1 Macc 5:54 -- "...not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace."


    Luke 1:80 -- John the B "was in the deserts TILL the day of his manifestation to Israel."


    John 4:49 -- "Sir, come down BEFORE my child dies!"


    Rom 8:22 -- "...the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now."


    1 Cor 15:25 -- "For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet."


    1 Tim 4:13 -- "TILL I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine." (When Paul arrives, no more reading, no more exhorting, no more doctrine?)


    1 Tim 6:14 -- "....that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing..." (When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments?)


    Rev 2:25-26 -- "But hold fast what you have TILL I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works UNTIL the end, to him I will give power..."


    So according to the Apostolic faiths, use of the word "until" does not necessarily mean a change in condition. In fact, the many examples above show that often it means that they remain in the same state.

    When Luke says that John the B "was in the deserts TILL the day of his manifestation to Israel, " Did John stay in the desert AFTER the day of his manifestation to Israel? Of course.

    http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num27.htm
     
  18. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    I hope that made sense. Just look at the way TILL is used. Their condition does not change in each example. Neither, they would argue, did Mary's.

    This was argued in the early Church by the same theologians who argued for the trinity, the human and divine natures of Christ, etc. many of the same ideas that we now take for granted.
     
  19. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

    may iinterject...another interpretation of the last bit of verses Lucy posted are often interpreted as "brothers" as in the slang term for friends and such...i think thats where the catholic titles for their ministers comes from...

    im still sure He's got brothers and such running around, maybe even a few kids
     
  20. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

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