Question about Isaiah 7:14

I consider myself to be agnostic so I'm neither for or against anyone that answers. I was reading on a website debating atheist vs christain in which the discussion was about the virgin birth. Specifically the verse Isaiah 7:14. One person says:

Now my question is basically if the original Hebrew reads "ha-almah", where does the virgin birth come from?

 

A mistranslation.

In reality, Joseph got lucky one night, in the tent.

 

I'd imagine that the story of the virgin birth happened around 80 years after when Christianity was getting started--prolly Paul's fault.

Better question: does the historical meaning of Christianity (whether or not the stories the religion is based on are literally true) really have any relation to the contemporary meaning it has? What about the relative subjective meaning?

I seriously doubt many Christians can actually explain their Christological views. I don't see how miracles and the resurrection have any effect on the contemporary meaning of Christianity. Most people disagree with me. They live in the midwest.

 

they want to prove the divinty of christ

 

religions aren't normally proven, though. not in the same sense that most other things are (science, for instance). religions are lived beliefs. people who want to prove things generally just do so for egotistical reasons (fundamentalist types, for instance).

and the divinity of christ doesnt rise and fall with the legitamacy of miracles or his resurrection, anyways. there is a big leap to make, to go from doing a handful of neato tricks (rising from the dead, healing the blind), to a omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent being. miracles and resurrection don't do it for me, and I'm a christian.

my point is that its a faith thing, and the truth of the bible has nothing to do with it at all, from my persepctive.

 

For the poor old christians it's very important that the birth of the supposed jesus was a miraculous virgin birth, and any text from anywhere that even hints at such must be seized upon as proof. Otherwise jesus would be a bastard.

Nudge-Nudge; Wink-wink;

 

you asked why christian's were so gung ho on the miracles of Christ. Its simple it makes them to belive that Christ was divine But you are right rather divine or not miracles have nothing to do with it. But do you want to tell the masses cause I don't feel like getting stoned!

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/virginprophecy.shtml

that's about as unbiased and well documented article as you're going to be able to find on the passage in question, imo... it's not that long either, I highly highly recommend...

 

You do realise that the whole website infidels.org is biased against all things spiritual (its where I lurked in my atheist days before I had a recognizable (by me) spiritual experience). Unless you are Mary, you do not know the truth, although you can believe either way.

 

I know that the site is biased, especially the forums (though there are far more christians on there than on here), but I was referring to the article itself. The guy presents both sides of the argument, doesn't jump to conclusions, and even concedes that the prophesy in question could simply mean that Mary was a virgin, had sex, and got pregnant, thus fulfilling the prophesy. If you can find a more unbiased article about the Isiah virgin birth prophesy, be my guest. I for one would love to read it.

 

Why do you ask this question here? You have to know that there are either no or very few Christians on the "Christian" forum. There is no one to defend the side of the Bible, there will only be those who oppose it.

 

I'm guessing because, unlike the militant athiests or fanatical religious people in here, some of us haven't quite got God, the universe, and everything in it all figured out yet.

Well actually this is the Christianity forum, it's where people (some of us) go to discuss christianity, not defend or attack some particular interpretation of what that word means.
But you may be right about there being no christians in here.

The "side of the Bible"? sorry, that's just funny. you actually see reading the book and trying to understand what it's saying as an attack on it.

 

Freakin awesome naykid.... awesome.

 

My point was: Why do people ask questions that are suppose to be dirrected to Christians on here yet they know there will be very few Christian responses. It is almost like asking a question about eating meat directed to those who eat meat but you ask vegatarian.

 

His bias is indicated by his words (reread the article).
On a larger note, Carrier is definitely biased against spirituality.

We aren't Mary (or God). We don't know. We aren't even Isaiah, who could tell us exactly what he meant.

 

The Gospel of Matthew 1:22-23 explicitly links the Isaiah prophecy to the birth of Jesus. The two words in Hebrew that can be translated into English as virgin are bethulah, and almah. Isaiah uses almah in the Masoretic Text. Some scholars believe it only means young woman, while others believe it refers to virgin. There may always be a question here. Yet, the word almah has been used at least seven times in the Old Testament, and it has never been used to describe a woman, who was not a virgin. Based on that fact alone, it would be hard to make a strong arguement that the word could only mean young woman.

 

He only argues against Isaiah's prophecy.

Sure it does.

No. Why would it?

 

Go to a strip club.

 

But isnt the christain faith based on the life and teachings of Jesus?

A Christian's faith is based in the relationship he or she has with God. A person's relationship with God is something like a person's relationship with a steak: it's where the teeth meet the meat. Plates, and cutlery, and A-1 Sauce are all incidental.

There are people in the world who have a relationship with Christ despite the fact they have never read the first word about Him; much less known His name. There are people on this forum who claim not to believe in the trappings of Christianity, yet the things that issue from their hearts, whether they choose to admit it or not, prove to many of us that they also have a relationship with Christ.

 

If anyone has ever really watched the movie Snatch, in the beginning the crooks dressed as Rabis are talking about this very subject. You should check it out. Made me think of it...